2007 IPSC Canadian Nationals

I think the classification is so out of whack, and makes very little 'practical' sense, that I'm not sure what the point in being classified is. I guess it gives you the chance to win an award or trophy at the Nationals and that is about it.

Makes me wonder if I should have gotten classified before this years Nationals; I made the shoot-offs:dancingbanana:

And thanks Omen for the tips over the last few months. They helped.
 
kent23 said:
I think the classification is so out of whack, and makes very little 'practical' sense, that I'm not sure what the point in being classified is. I guess it gives you the chance to win an award or trophy at the Nationals and that is about it.
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the (very sounds and great for the sport) theory is that individual success can be and should be measured relative to one's current skill level, not just overall. So, yes, as you said, it is to award people who do very well against opponents of the same skill level.

That's the theory. The trick is in implementing that. The (Canada-wide) class lists being produced now don't really reflect the goals of the system (and I'm sure that even people who violenty disagree with my earlier statements, and who think that I should shut up and play nice, taking advice from those who know more about ICS and IPSC and whatever else than I do, can't argue with that. The best I've heard from them was 'give it a few years, and it might equal out'. I guess we have no choice.).

Unlike in BC and NS, where people seem to be able to put on matches at will with (it seems) everyone having access to a personal range (almost), we in this part of Canada are fairly limited in what we can do, re ICS stages. Still, I'll try to approach some MDs to see if we can get THOSE specific ICS stages included in some matches during the rest of year, into the spring, so we can try and knock ipsc1 off his artificially high ICS pedestal, to bring some sanity to the Prod classes. We'll make sure to advertise those to get as many shooters out to them as possible...

kent23 said:
And thanks Omen for the tips over the last few months. They helped.
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hey, anytime ;)
 
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I'm not even shooting IPSC yet and I see exactly the problem as omen point out.

Having M playing with B class is like when I was playing bowling in JR while I was suposed to be in the Teens since I was scoring almost like an adult (200). It wasn't fair for the kids.

-All ICS stage should be equal: If you score like a Master in ICS-10, you should score Master in all ICS stage..

-A 95 percentile like system might work.. if you are a Class B and score once like a Master, it shouldn't reflect your ICS.. same if you did VERY poor once. Not because you had some malfunctions with your guns at one match you should drop from M to A/B...


I'm looking to maybe take my BB in 2 week if I can find an extra mag and holster/mag pouche cheap and try that sport. I'll do it only for fun and won't go to Nationnal, nor (maybe) provincial, but I understand those that REALLY like it, do it for the competition and get F9cked by the maths/stats...


Isn't there a way to know how ICS is really calculated? Like asking those at IPSC Canada or I don't know. It's flawed and should be changed, if no one can know how it work, how people are expected to come out with something better?
 
Icefire said:
Isn't there a way to know how ICS is really calculated?
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Honestly, don't even go there. Yes, we know how it's calculated (it's not that difficult, but in my option, the way the Regional classes are computed falls into the "it sounded like a good idea at the time" category), and from all indications we're stuck with it, so might as well learn to deal with it. Go shoot some ICS stages, get your D class (if you're just starting) and shoot for fun. Once you start going up in class, if these problems still exist in whichever division you'll be in, you'll revisit the situation then.

what gun do you have (you need extra equipment for it)?
 
Got a CZ75B in .40s&w with 2 mags. Will go production probably.
Got a Lee pro 1000, some Universal Clays and 180 lead/Excel CMJ bullet. I'll try to make a soft shooting load for it as Hodgdon say min5.0 to max5.8gr which both are major.. 175-188pf... :confused:

Was to have a nice Bladetech holster for 30$ but seller have sold it somehow to someone else.

Looked for FO/Adjustable, but 80-100$us... when other guns are 30$ for both, It's not fair I guess
 
A note on IPSC Canada site say:

Stage Suggestions

IPSC Canada Suggestions for getting members classified

In an effort to ensure that as many people as possible have a accurate ICS class for the Canadian Nationals this year, IPSC Canada suggests that clubs and sections focus on the CLC 33, CLC 07, CLC 67, CLC 03, CLC 67,CLC 17,CLC 7, and CLC 11 classifiers.
All of these Classifier stages can be found at: Classifier Stages
Thank you IPSC Canada
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As omen as pointed, ipsc1 didn't shoot any of those stage. Why not make 4 of those 8 stage mandatory? like to Qualify you need to have shot AT LEAST 4 of those 8 stages?
 
Icefire said:
A note on IPSC Canada site say:



As omen as pointed, ipsc1 didn't shoot any of those stage. Why not make 4 of those 8 stage mandatory? like to Qualify you need to have shot AT LEAST 4 of those 8 stages?
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Practicing the same stages over and over wouldn't help the situation either
 
Icefire said:
Got a CZ75B in .40s&w with 2 mags. Will go production probably.[...]
Looked for FO/Adjustable, but 80-100$us... when other guns are 30$ for both, It's not fair I guess
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hmmm... don't have any mags to lend you in that...

but re FO, you can get those from Angus here:

http://www.ghostholster.com/cz_home.htm

for about $40. Re adjustable, you can get the PSI adjustable sight from here:

http://www.precisionsalesintl.com/tpu.html


or, for $100, you can get the whole set of adj FO sights:

http://www.precisionsalesintl.com/ttf.html
 
Icefire said:
Why not make 4 of those 8 stage mandatory? like to Qualify you need to have shot AT LEAST 4 of those 8 stages?
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Because the system is set at the World Level, and we have no way (using the classification that we download) of excluding scores. Heck, without knowing someone's alias, we have no way of even check to see which classifiers they shot.
 
omen said:
but re FO, you can get those from Angus here:

http://www.ghostholster.com/cz_home.htm

for about $40. Re adjustable, you can get the PSI adjustable sight from here:

http://www.precisionsalesintl.com/tpu.html


or, for $100, you can get the whole set of adj FO sights:

http://www.precisionsalesintl.com/ttf.html
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The TPU alone are 65$ (rear only) but can be had for 43$ at http://www.ajaxgrips.com/ajax/psi

A whole set FO Front/Rear is 80$us at Ajax.

I'm not sure their front sight are drop in, as they say it's Dovetail...

I'll look to see if my reloads are accurate with factory sights first.
 
that's the other problem with ICS, is that people practice stages they know they are going to have to shoot at a match. that doesn't give a true representation of their skill level.
For me, I really couldn't care less what my ICS rating is, I don't care about class trophies, and don't care about rankings. I'm here to shoot and have fun. If I get to take some wood/metal/glass/plastic home, cool, but in the end it's about fun and hanging with some cool people. If they can come up with a useful ranking system, neato, but I don't see it being realistic. Maybe IPSC should pay Eric to travel the world shooting in every region and that's how you get your ranking? You have to attend a match with Eric shooting in your division
 
Slavex said:
that's the other problem with ICS, is that people practice stages they know they are going to have to shoot at a match. that doesn't give a true representation of their skill level.
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People also practice stages they think they are going to see at big matches. When we have standard exercises published in our BC match copies, I know a lot of people who practice them before hand.

If I get a good match diagram beforehand, I try to guess what the stage is going to look like, and maybe practice what I think is going to be there. Obviously, it's not exactly the same as ICS, where all of the distances and everything are laid out, but if I think a match is going to have a lot of partial targets, I'll practice a lot of partial targets.

Case in point, I heard how "technical" the Ontario Provincials were last year, so this year, I practiced 15-20 yard partial targets in the month before the Nationals. Apparently, my definition of "technical" isn't the same as "Ontario Technical". :p
 
In General Principals of Course Design
1.1.4 Diversity = Ipsc shooting challenges are diverse. While it is not necessary to construct new courses for each match, no single course of fire must be repeated to allow its use to be considered a definative measure of IPSC shooting skills.
(Does this not make ICS a contradiction to the very principals of IPSC)


Supermag
 
The reason why ICS is floating is becuase it is still relatively new. say you pick th four stages that have not been shot. well then guess what you just made Master Class school even if you have a hit factor of 1.0000.

as i have said before if people made the effort to incorporate ICS stages into their matches ICS would work. or even put on a couple of ICS matches.
as for practising ICS why? i would rahter have my ICS Scores reflect my actural shooting abilities (such as they are) rather then to grossly inflate them.
 
Quigley said:
You specifically mentioned Production...again...might lead one to believe that the issue is not present in the other Divisions...obviously not the case...

It's pure Stats...most people only have a few stages in...and since you get classed on your best 4...if they are also your first 4...that's not even enough to calculate standard deviation...so initial results are generally high or low...but rarely reflective of actual shooting ability.

It's not going away....so maybe it's time we gave it a chance (that means encouraging more clubs to include ICS stages in their matches)
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Omen said:
a) match organizers hate putting on ICS stages

b) shooters hate shooting ICS stages

c) virtually no one, with any ipsc experience, outside of the sectional/regional "management" thinks that ICS is the way to go (at least based on my experience talking to shooters).

There is no way (NO WAY) that ICS stages will become any kind of regular feasure in ipsc matches around these parts (heaven forbid that they did!) They will show up in the couple/few weeks before each Nationals, but that's about it. Hoping otherwise is wishing thinking, nothing more.

Maybe it's time we stopped trying to change how we shoot ipsc in order to accommodate the classification system being mandated onto us, and instead find a classification system which reflects how we shoot.
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If all regions require at least 1 ICS in their Level II and III matches in order to be sanctioned the ICS system will start to become more relevant. No shooter will tank an ICS stage just to keep their rank lower at the cost of over all result in that match. The "ICS only" matches are a joke... where all 4 stages are ICS stages and can be done at anytime (could even be incorporated as a club level match for some) and would create greater temptation to sandbag.

Omen is not referring to the sandbagging aspect of it but the inability of this system to truly reflect our abilities. If more ICS stages are REQUIRED in matches the standings would better reflect our true ability, well, at least Omen's cause he shoot a lot of matches...

If this is the system that we have adopted and will stick to then let's help it do what it's suppose to do.... Regardless of anyone's opinion it's not going to work ( at least better than it currently is) unless we make it a requirement at every Level II or higher including Provincial and National competitions ( I would like to see them incorporated in level 1's as well but not every club has the facilities to run ICS and other stages as well).

USPSA has at least 1 classifier stage per match and that is what is used to calculate your National Standings (as well as special Classifier matches). That is why a Grand Master in Michigan is a Grand Master in Arizona and Florida etc.. It too is not perfect but it is at least a truer representation of everyone's ability.
 
Natinals ICS??

maxpig said:
If all regions require at least 1 ICS in their Level II and III matches in order to be sanctioned the ICS system will start to become more relevant. No shooter will tank an ICS stage just to keep their rank lower at the cost of over all result in that match. The "ICS only" matches are a joke... where all 4 stages are ICS stages and can be done at anytime (could even be incorporated as a club level match for some) and would create greater temptation to sandbag.

Omen is not referring to the sandbagging aspect of it but the inability of this system to truly reflect our abilities. If more ICS stages are REQUIRED in matches the standings would better reflect our true ability, well, at least Omen's cause he shoot a lot of matches...

If this is the system that we have adopted and will stick to then let's help it do what it's suppose to do.... Regardless of anyone's opinion it's not going to work ( at least better than it currently is) unless we make it a requirement at every Level II or higher including Provincial and National competitions ( I would like to see them incorporated in level 1's as well but not every club has the facilities to run ICS and other stages as well).

USPSA has at least 1 classifier stage per match and that is what is used to calculate your National Standings (as well as special Classifier matches). That is why a Grand Master in Michigan is a Grand Master in Arizona and Florida etc.. It too is not perfect but it is at least a truer representation of everyone's ability.
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Couldn't have put it better myself. These are facts. What we have now is no alternative, as it does not work. This will be a truer reflection of skill if we give it a chance. The more it's used, the better it gets.
 
Could you guys clarify something for me.
The website says the following:

COMPETITOR SPACES
Our facility and staff are ready to welcome up to 300 competitors to this 30th anniversary match. We are planning two half days of competing for each entrant, plus the equivalent of one full work day across the five days of the match.


Does this mean I could be scheduled to work partial days across the entire five days of the match? Meaning I will potentially have to take five days (or five partial days) off work for this?

Just need to confirm ....
Thanks.
 
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