.223 or .308?

223 Rem & 90gr VLD Bergers

Magnum run these speeds in your balistic calculator, These are from JERRYHM
on 6mmbr.com. he has tested the 223 with 32" cut to 30' then to 28" interesting post


Three Lots of RL15 ---- BARREL AT 32”
August 3, 2009 Sacramento 100 yard chronograph – 63 degrees – 62% humidity
Bullet --- Powder-lot --- Charge --- MV ---- ES --- SD --- Primer --- Group size --- Comments
S80 ---- RL15-13X ------ 25.0 ------ 2986 ---- 13 --- 05 -----CCIBR --- 0.387” ------- jump 20 8/03/09
S80 ---- RL15-13X ------ 25.5 ------ 3033 ---- 21 --- 09 -----CCIBR --- 0.497” ------- jump 20 8/03/09
S80 ---- RL15-13X ------ 25.0 ------ 2980 ---- 37 --- 15 -----F205M --- 0.537” ------- jump 20 8/03/09
S80 ---- RL15-13X ------ 25.5 ------ 3028 ---- 09 --- 03 -----F205M --- 0.356” ------- jump 20 8/03/09
S80 ---- RL15-27X ------ 25.0 ------ 3002 ---- 27 --- 09 -----CCIBR --- 0.230” ------- jump 20 8/03/09
S80 ---- RL15-27X ------ 25.5 ------ 3044 ---- 17 --- 06 -----CCIBR --- 0.591” ------- jump 20 8/03/09
S80 ---- RL15-27X ------ 25.0 ------ 2999 ---- 15 --- 06 -----F205M --- 0.479” ------- jump 20 8/03/09
S80 ---- RL15-27X ------ 25.5 ------ 3040 ---- 35 --- 15 -----F205M --- 0.701” ------- jump 20 8/03/09
S80 ---- RL15-27Y ------ 25.0 ------ 2988 ---- 22 --- 09 -----CCIBR --- 0.812” ------- jump 20 8/03/09
S80 ---- RL15-27Y ------ 25.5 ------ 3028 ---- 13 --- 05 -----CCIBR --- 0.302” ------- jump 20 8/03/09
S80 ---- RL15-27Y ------ 25.0 ------ 2973 ---- 28 --- 11 -----F205M --- 0.740” ------- jump 20 8/03/09
S80 ---- RL15-27Y ------ 25.5 ------ 3023 ---- 30 --- 11 -----F205M --- 0.379” ------- jump 20 8/03/09
H80 ---- RL15-13X ------ 25.3 ------ 3015 ---- 18 --- 08 -----F205M --- 0.544” ------- jump 20 8/03/09
B90VLD -N550----------- 25.5 ------ 2850 ---- 48 --- 19 ------------------ 0.561” ------- in 10 6/15/09
B90BT ---N550----------- 25.5 ------ 2825 ---- 21 --- 07 ------------------ 0.504” ------- jump 20 6/15/09
B82 ------ N550----------- 26.0 ------ 2963 ---- 40 --- 15 ------------------ 0.352” ------- jump 20 6/15/09
S80 ------ N150----------- 25.6 ------ 2971 ---- 26 --- 10 ------------------ 0.518” ------- jump 20 7/20/09
S80 -----Varget ----------- 25.6 ------ 3022 ---- 27 --- 10 ------------------ 0.675” ------- jump .010” 5/15/09
B80 ---- Varget ----------- 25.5 ------ 3024 ---- 32 --- 12 ------------------ 0.351” ------- IN .010” 5/08/





I have a 30 in barrel on a Barnard action and have fired safley 80 gr over 3000 fps and 90gr over 2900fps, the 90gr load at 2900 is hard on cases so I use a lighter load shoot f class at 2860fps. I was shooting last night at Connaught with a very good TR shooter he was going from 8 to 10 moa of wind at 900 meters in a .308win with 155gr, My 223 was from 7 to 8.75moa
Now you will understand why a 223 will run with a 6mm any day AT 1000Y
I know it would be tough to beat the 6mm out to 600m.
 
.223 or .308, sometimes the simplest solutions are the best.

5Rs.jpg
 
mysticplayer said:
If new high energy powders get released (plant is being built in the US as we speak), it is theoretically possible to push the 90's into the 2900fps.

Jerry
Click to expand...

Any more info on these powders?
Are these future powders engineered like a faster burning Reloder 17?

w ww.6mmbr.com/reloder17.html
"Reloder 17's unique penetrating burn-rate regulator smooths out the pressure curve, allowing RL17 to maintain high energy for a longer period of time."

"The second reason RL17 offers so much added velocity is load density. This powder packs very tightly"
 
MagnumPeanut said:
Well if you can get 2800+ FPS that kinda changes things. Still think the 6mmBR makes more sense. I'm gunna be stubborn about this one.
Click to expand...

don't get me wrong, the 6BR is one of shootings Gems. Love this chambering.

My POV is from F class. With the 223, you are in F TR where you can shoot on an equal footing with the other chambering the 308.

In F open, the 6BR runs with all the larger cals and this is a disadvantage the further out you compete.

So the 6BR is a 'tween case. Just depends on what you want from the rifle.

HD, depends on the mag. the 90's were never intended to be mag fed and the vast majority of mags are WAY too short to work.

the only mag that I have used successfully is the new Savage Center feed. this has the longest internal length of any commercially available mag.

The typical 2.3" mag is not going to work with much over 75/77gr's.

Jerry
 
scottm said:
Any more info on these powders?
Are these future powders engineered like a faster burning Reloder 17?

w ww.6mmbr.com/reloder17.html
"Reloder 17's unique penetrating burn-rate regulator smooths out the pressure curve, allowing RL17 to maintain high energy for a longer period of time."

"The second reason RL17 offers so much added velocity is load density. This powder packs very tightly"
Click to expand...

Yes, the German/Swiss (?) company that designed the new re17 is supposed to be teaming up with ATK to build a factory in the US to make more high energy powders.

Bottom line, Uncle Sam needs their AR's to hit a whole lot harder without big issues on cost or logistics. A powder with more ZAP is the easiest way to get the job done AND there is certainly a desire to get more oomph from the 77gr slugs.

Nice thing, this sort of tech should also increase the performance of the bullets we will use.

When, where, how much - that's is certainly in the air as the plant isn't built yet as far as I know.

But eventually, this tech will trickle down to us.

For now, over 2800fps puts the 223 in pretty lofty air. Twist rates are figured out, OAL and seating is done.

Now we just need shooters on the line to start doing well and the benefits of the 223 will be realised.

the powder will simply be gravy down the road.

Jerry
 
Mystic makes a good case for 223 for ftr class. However his reality may be different then yours. He is a skilled reloader shooting excellent ammo with excellent rifles in custom fast twist barrels.

If you are shooting a factory rifle with factory ammo 223 will be more challenging to hit with then 308.
 
chanman said:
A new powder won't provide a similar improvement for the .308?
Click to expand...

Absolutely BUT to get the same BC of the 90gr Berger VLD and whatever else gets invented, the bullet mass has to skyrocket.

Right now the comparable bullet are the 185 to 190gr VLD's for BC.

I really doubt that you could or want to get these to 2800/2900fps and shoot it in long strings with max accuracy.

You would need to turn a 308 into a 300WM. That would be some serious powder tech and/or running dangerously high pressures.

Recoil is a huge negative for precision shooting. There are no points for bruised shoulders. Shooter fatigue when shooting a few hundred rds can affect your score.

Definitely there are shooters that can and will take this beating without so much as a flinch. The vast majority of shooters will do better with the least amount of recoil possible.

Then there is barrel heat. Using 1/2 the powder will ALWAYS heat a barrel up less. That is great as it lowers the chance of barrel warping - match barrels usually handle heat well but cooler is always better.

So when you add equal/better ballistics, 1/3 the recoil, much lower shooting costs, lower heat issues, any extra work needed to load ammo is moot. Precision shooters load ALL ammo to the 'nth degree regardless of the case.

Shooting a 223 will also allow more junior and female shooters to join the fun. This is critical to our sports survival - more people the better and hurting them is not how you make them come back.

Bolivar, the 308 is no more junk then a pushrod V8 in many hot rods. Completely functional, but there are alot of more effecient engines. If you like it shoot it.

Tech changes and new mousetraps get invented. If you were in or near the OK Valley, I would take you out LR shooting and you can compare my 223's with ANY cartridge you want.

Within 1500yds (as much elevation as I have right now), you simply have to lean more into the wind with the 223.

Jerry
 
I may have inserted my foot into mouth in this debate, but I still stand by the 6mmBR for its extreme accuracy at long range over 223. I'm not even close to as experienced with the 223 as Jerry is, but I know the 6mmBR and what it can do at 1000 yards is very impressive.
Someday I may peel my 7mmBR barrel off my Savage and put a 1-7 223 barrel just to try these hokey 90g match VLDs out for fun, but then again, I could just keep shooting the 6mmBR and 7mmRM as I have as much fun as a twister in a trailer park with them.
 
mysticplayer said:
Absolutely BUT to get the same BC of the 90gr Berger VLD and whatever else gets invented, the bullet mass has to skyrocket.

Right now the comparable bullet are the 185 to 190gr VLD's for BC.

I really doubt that you could or want to get these to 2800/2900fps and shoot it in long strings with max accuracy.

You would need to turn a 308 into a 300WM. That would be some serious powder tech and/or running dangerously high pressures.

Recoil is a huge negative for precision shooting. There are no points for bruised shoulders. Shooter fatigue when shooting a few hundred rds can affect your score.

Definitely there are shooters that can and will take this beating without so much as a flinch. The vast majority of shooters will do better with the least amount of recoil possible.

Then there is barrel heat. Using 1/2 the powder will ALWAYS heat a barrel up less. That is great as it lowers the chance of barrel warping - match barrels usually handle heat well but cooler is always better.

So when you add equal/better ballistics, 1/3 the recoil, much lower shooting costs, lower heat issues, any extra work needed to load ammo is moot. Precision shooters load ALL ammo to the 'nth degree regardless of the case.

Shooting a 223 will also allow more junior and female shooters to join the fun. This is critical to our sports survival - more people the better and hurting them is not how you make them come back.

Bolivar, the 308 is no more junk then a pushrod V8 in many hot rods. Completely functional, but there are alot of more effecient engines. If you like it shoot it.

Tech changes and new mousetraps get invented. If you were in or near the OK Valley, I would take you out LR shooting and you can compare my 223's with ANY cartridge you want.

Within 1500yds (as much elevation as I have right now), you simply have to lean more into the wind with the 223.

Jerry
Click to expand...

Well said Jerry X2
 
mysticplayer said:
Bolivar, the 308 is no more junk then a pushrod V8 in many hot rods. Completely functional, but there are alot of more effecient engines. If you like it shoot it.

Jerry
Click to expand...

I think you nailed it. My uncle runs a old Pontiac pushrod 455 SD that he drives to the track and back home and has no problem dealing with the nodular engines out there. These efficient engines seem to have no advantage over the older design as all the top fuel stuff is pushrod. I know it is just an analogy but the difference in performance seen by many of the new cars are from transmission, suspension, and computer additions; once the older cars become modernized the difference is moot and more comes down to choice.

.308 to fill your freezer and the .223 or .308 to punch holes in paper made the choice easy for me.
 
98%Brent, absolutely. For certain sports and applications, pushrod tech works amazingly well.

There is also nothing like the rumble of a big block loofing along at 1000rpm with enough torque to peel the rubber off the meats at ANY sane speed.

BUT change the rules and the tech also changes dramatically.

Modern 4 and 5 valve motors spinning at insane RPM's are the method of choice for a whole lot of top end racing. The rules drive the tech in this direction.

Pretty hard to build a 250mph F1 car with a weight of 1700ish lbs when the motor weighs 1/3 of that.

If they put a limit on top fuel to 2litres displacement, the engines winning would be a whole lot different.

What would NASCAR look like if they allowed Fuel injection??????

The 308 is a wonderful standard, works great, lots of info, completely predictable, multiple applications but new tech gives you many of these features with different positives and options.

Jerry
 
put it this way. Not a single .223 on the line at the recent western f class championships. Manitou's .223 is the first one that's really come to the fore and done well in competition, so I guess you could say it's early days for the new generation 90's in the .223. I think it can work, but there's really only the one bullet that makes it better than a .308. Making a .308 work is dead easy. Lapua brass, 155.5 berger, 155 scenar, 185 berger, Varget, H4895, N150, R15 will all shoot well enough to win. While the .223 might be easier on the shooter to shoot, it's my impression that it is harder to get the 90's to shoot really well. Not trying to be a wet blanket, but if a beginner is really serious about starting F/Tr, I think the edge still goes to the .308 for the first season or two, unless the newbie is only going to shoot shorter distances. If one is going to stay at 600m and shorter, than I would be happy w/ a .223. If the 90's work, then great. If they don't the 80's and 75's can be just as competitive.
 
mysticplayer said:
98%Brent, absolutely. For certain sports and applications, pushrod tech works amazingly well.

There is also nothing like the rumble of a big block loofing along at 1000rpm with enough torque to peel the rubber off the meats at ANY sane speed.

BUT change the rules and the tech also changes dramatically.

Modern 4 and 5 valve motors spinning at insane RPM's are the method of choice for a whole lot of top end racing. The rules drive the tech in this direction.

Pretty hard to build a 250mph F1 car with a weight of 1700ish lbs when the motor weighs 1/3 of that.

If they put a limit on top fuel to 2litres displacement, the engines winning would be a whole lot different.

What would NASCAR look like if they allowed Fuel injection??????

The 308 is a wonderful standard, works great, lots of info, completely predictable, multiple applications but new tech gives you many of these features with different positives and options.

Jerry
Click to expand...

Jerry,
this thread made my day with car and gun talk all on the same post. It also brought a smile to my face to see you know your cars as well as your firearms. Also, you do raise some interesting points in regards to rules impacting on what equipment is being used.

Sometimes I believe the .308 is overly marginalized though.

Cheers
 
mpwolf said:
put it this way. Not a single .223 on the line at the recent western f class championships. Manitou's .223 is the first one that's really come to the fore and done well in competition, so I guess you could say it's early days for the new generation 90's in the .223. I think it can work, but there's really only the one bullet that makes it better than a .308. Making a .308 work is dead easy. Lapua brass, 155.5 berger, 155 scenar, 185 berger, Varget, H4895, N150, R15 will all shoot well enough to win. While the .223 might be easier on the shooter to shoot, it's my impression that it is harder to get the 90's to shoot really well. Not trying to be a wet blanket, but if a beginner is really serious about starting F/Tr, I think the edge still goes to the .308 for the first season or two, unless the newbie is only going to shoot shorter distances. If one is going to stay at 600m and shorter, than I would be happy w/ a .223. If the 90's work, then great. If they don't the 80's and 75's can be just as competitive.
Click to expand...

Matt thanks for the nice words on my luck with the 223 as you said the .308 is the best choice for F/tr, watching results from you and Terry in a battle right to the finnish in Winnipeg. I mentioned this on another post
Fern Renaud
shot a 75 ten X at 400y at Quebec last weekend after missing paper first sighter, Fern was shooting a RPA Quad lock, with a Rob Smith barrel shooting the old 155gr Sierra,s quite amazing shooting considering the target was the 1/2min 300 meter target. and Daren put on a display with a .308 winning easly the F/TR class.
There will be two or three 223 rem,s at Borden Shoot next week will see if they can run against the .308. Alain Marion is going to shoot a round of 15 on Sunday or Wed at Connaught with my 223 if anyone can do well at 900m it should be him, he has a manual wind computer between his ears, 48 years at Connaught.
If he ever takes up F class shooting he will be a contender for sure even if was a 223 rem.
hope to pair up with you Matt at a shoot soon it would be fun, and I hope you shoot first, because i will see the red disc for a aming point in V Bull
manitou
 
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