.223 or .308?

[Mystic Precision]

Jerry,
this thread made my day with car and gun talk all on the same post. It also brought a smile to my face to see you know your cars as well as your firearms. Also, you do raise some interesting points in regards to rules impacting on what equipment is being used.

Sometimes I believe the .308 is overly marginalized though.

Cheers

Cars were a past life - lots of fun and if we think guns are expensive, we got nothing on cars.

The 308 is a wonderful round but there has been so much new stuff over the last 10 yrs that it is hard to stick with Vanilla.

The 308 has over 50yr head start in competitive shooting. The 22cal 90's are only a few yrs old. As development gets done and better shooters campaign it, its use will spread.

the PPC didn't take over SR BR shooting in a yr, neither will the 223 be popular in F TR in a season.

the big part of 223 success is precise weighing of charges. this requires a better scale then commonly offered through reloading manf. some will not want to fuss with this then the larger case will be more their style.

shooting is a slow sport to change but change it will. In the coming year, I will have a 223 rig going and hopefully take it to matches.

Will see how it does.

4 yrs ago, a 7mm in F open was a novelty, now it is gaining ground and becoming the next best thing for better or worse. ONE bullet changed this landscape and new bullets will continue to drive the choices shooters make to find their better mousetrap.

Jerry

 

[drache]

Ok so Im looking into a Savage 10. The .223 model has a 1in 9 twist and the .308 model has a 1 in 10 I believe.

I'll pretty much be shooting at 300 yards and maybe pushing it out to 500 yards when we get done logging. Would it be easier for the .223 or the .308 in these situations.

Now I must say I currently don't reload, planning on it once I move out of the apartment. So I would be using factory ammo. .308 is also more costly than .223 so that is also a slight factor with factory ammo

 

[cbabes]

4 yrs ago, a 7mm in F open was a novelty, now it is gaining ground and becoming the next best thing for better or worse. ONE bullet changed this landscape and new bullets will continue to drive the choices shooters make to find their better mousetrap.

Jerry

I was thinking this about the .270. With the right bullet wouldn't you agree this would be a great precision choice? I have one of your Shilen barrel/Timney trigger combos in .270 and think if the right bullet came along this thing would be up there with the best of them. It's already a tack driver.

 

[jennis]

For busting rocks and knocking over propane bottles @ 400 yards the 223 will suffice , for recreational use go with the cheaper of the two rounds

 

[Mystic Precision]

Ok so Im looking into a Savage 10. The .223 model has a 1in 9 twist and the .308 model has a 1 in 10 I believe.

I'll pretty much be shooting at 300 yards and maybe pushing it out to 500 yards when we get done logging. Would it be easier for the .223 or the .308 in these situations.

Now I must say I currently don't reload, planning on it once I move out of the apartment. So I would be using factory ammo. .308 is also more costly than .223 so that is also a slight factor with factory ammo

Both will work very well for what you intend to do.

But the 223 will do it with less cost and recoil - that's it.

223 varmint ammo is also more readily available then match 308. Most varmint loads are very accurate and can do well out to 500yds. Of course, the lighter bullets get bounced around alot but you are just plinking so just have fun.

Many have reported excellent performance from the win 40gr white box varmint ammo in Savage/Stevens. I think this stuff is very inexpensive for factory ammo so if it shoots for you, awesome.

Reloading will raise your performace so much it will put a never ending grin on your face. 75gr Amax or Berger VLD's over Varget, lit by a CCI450 in Win cases and you are set from here to as far as you have scope elevation and then some.

cbabes, absolutely. Bullets drive cartridge development. As we look at BC vs Weight vs case size vs recoil/wear, there is a honking big gap that the 270 would happily fill.

Right now, that gap is filled by the 7mm at 180's but that hurts to shoot. magnum cases use up alot of powder which accelerates wear and we are well into generating so much heat that barrels will get cooked alot sooner then expected.

F Open has gotten to be a money race.

That same bullet tech would produce a 270 150ish gr VLD with a similar BC. Now the 270-284 would be the cats meow with 3000fps a no brainer. Similar ballistics to the 7mm with recoil closer to a 6.5.

Sounds so good, no one will make the bullets

Oh well,...

Jerry

 

[drache]

Jerry you are truly a god among mortals in the Precision section of CGN!

 

[cbabes]

cbabes, absolutely. Bullets drive cartridge development. As we look at BC vs Weight vs case size vs recoil/wear, there is a honking big gap that the 270 would happily fill.

Right now, that gap is filled by the 7mm at 180's but that hurts to shoot. magnum cases use up alot of powder which accelerates wear and we are well into generating so much heat that barrels will get cooked alot sooner then expected.

F Open has gotten to be a money race.

That same bullet tech would produce a 270 150ish gr VLD with a similar BC. Now the 270-284 would be the cats meow with 3000fps a no brainer. Similar ballistics to the 7mm with recoil closer to a 6.5.

Sounds so good, no one will make the bullets

Oh well,...

Jerry

Very interesting. Maybe someday. Thanks.

 

[wapitiwhacker]

Ok so Im looking into a Savage 10. The .223 model has a 1in 9 twist and the .308 model has a 1 in 10 I believe.

I'll pretty much be shooting at 300 yards and maybe pushing it out to 500 yards when we get done logging. Would it be easier for the .223 or the .308 in these situations.

Now I must say I currently don't reload, planning on it once I move out of the apartment. So I would be using factory ammo. .308 is also more costly than .223 so that is also a slight factor with factory ammo

If you don't reload, I think you will find it much easier to find .308 match ammo than .223. You may even find some run of the mill ammo that shoots very well out of a .308.

I tried a very limited amount of factory ammo in my .223 when I first got it. None of if was suitable for precision work. Hand loaded .69 grain SMK are very capable out of my rifle at 300 yds. At 500 I struggle in the wind, but being very much a precision noob it has as much to do with the pilot as does with the bullet. 75 gr bullets are marginal in my rifle, but if you ask Jerry, I think he will tell you the Savages handle them quite well. I doubt they will be easy to find in factory ammo offerings tho'.

In my limited experience, if you are not handloading, you will be able to make a .308 shoot well easier than a .223 with factory ammo. Making a .223 shoot to precision standards takes a little bit of tinkering.

Well there you go, Jerry is a much faster typist than I. Now you have the skinny on the availability and accuracy of factory .223 ammo.

 

[Mystic Precision]

Jerry you are truly a god among mortals in the Precision section of CGN!

Wow, muchly appreciated...I guess I buy the first round of double doubles

WW, it really depends on where you live and what stores you have near you.

Living in sleepy hollow, hunting ammo is about all you will find on the shelves. Match ammo better refer to something to start a fire with cause 'we don't stock that here'.

However, there are various types of 223 varmint ammo - it is hunting ammo after all AND this stuff can shoot very well ie Win white box.

You'll have a much better chance to find some obscure Eastern Bloc surplus then Fed GM ammo in these parts.

When you are looking at a nice selection of grey Win ammo boxes with a few Green Rem boxes, there isn't alot of competition inspiration going on.

YMMV....

Jerry

 

[drache]

Wow, muchly appreciated...I guess I buy the first round of double doubles

WW, it really depends on where you live and what stores you have near you.

Living in sleepy hollow, hunting ammo is about all you will find on the shelves. Match ammo better refer to something to start a fire with cause 'we don't stock that here'.

However, there are various types of 223 varmint ammo - it is hunting ammo after all AND this stuff can shoot very well ie Win white box.

You'll have a much better chance to find some obscure Eastern Bloc surplus then Fed GM ammo in these parts.

When you are looking at a nice selection of grey Win ammo boxes with a few Green Rem boxes, there isn't alot of competition inspiration going on.

YMMV....

Jerry

The local gun store has a really good selection of ammunition generally on hand, especially in a town this size. I also have two other cities within an hour and a half each way so I'm sure I can find what's needed.

I used to have a .308 Remington 700 but after going through $200 worth of ammo a week for a month, I wanted something cheaper and sold it off locally.

So for a barrel with a 1 in 9 twist something like a 40g is the best bet? How heavy is about the max you'd go with that rate of twist? Reason I ask is I have a crap load of .223 55gr kicking around.

 

[wapitiwhacker]

Wow, muchly appreciated...I guess I buy the first round of double doubles

WW, it really depends on where you live and what stores you have near you.

Living in sleepy hollow, hunting ammo is about all you will find on the shelves. Match ammo better refer to something to start a fire with cause 'we don't stock that here'.

However, there are various types of 223 varmint ammo - it is hunting ammo after all AND this stuff can shoot very well ie Win white box.

You'll have a much better chance to find some obscure Eastern Bloc surplus then Fed GM ammo in these parts.

When you are looking at a nice selection of grey Win ammo boxes with a few Green Rem boxes, there isn't alot of competition inspiration going on.

YMMV....

Jerry

Even down here, I found the selection of .223 limited. All I could find was American Eagle and PRVI Partizan stuff that I couldn't get to shoot under an inch at 100 yds.(Maybe you are at an advantage, with stores up there catering to varmint hunters as opposed to the rata tatat crowd) Fortunately you got me outfitted with the tools I needed in short order, and I was able to build stuff my rifle really likes

 

[Mystic Precision]

Glad the gear is working for you.

Reloading is so good on so many levels.

Try the local Cdn tire and walmart for varmint 223 ammo.

Jerry

 

[mpwolf]

Absolutely BUT to get the same BC of the 90gr Berger VLD and whatever else gets invented, the bullet mass has to skyrocket.

Right now the comparable bullet are the 185 to 190gr VLD's for BC.

I really doubt that you could or want to get these to 2800/2900fps and shoot it in long strings with max accuracy.

You would need to turn a 308 into a 300WM. That would be some serious powder tech and/or running dangerously high pressures.

Recoil is a huge negative for precision shooting. There are no points for bruised shoulders. Shooter fatigue when shooting a few hundred rds can affect your score.

Definitely there are shooters that can and will take this beating without so much as a flinch. The vast majority of shooters will do better with the least amount of recoil possible.

Jerry

I'm not a large guy and my .308 is well inside the weight restriction @ 16lbs, and the recoil is absolutly no factor shooting 185 bergers. I agree that recoil is a detriment to good shooting, but a 18lb .308 w/ a well designed stock should not be difficult to shoot, or be the least bit punishing.

I would submit that rifle fit, and scope mounting/ comb height harmony will solve most recoil issues for the newbie F/Tr shooter.

 

[Mystic Precision]

mpwolf, there was a time I used to shoot ALOT of 308 and trap. Caused some permanent shoulder injury as a result. Now some days, a 223 can be punishing.

Of course, most male shooters aren't saddled with these issues but kids and women likely wouldn't like the thumping anymore then I do.

We need much more of the later.

Recoil is a very personal thing and what some can handle, will kill another shooter.

With the 223, there is no issue with recoil for any shooter. Good for newbies. Good for us broken shooters.

With the equal/better balllistics, there is no downside to this direction.

YMMV,

Jerry

 

[drache]

Not to mention packing an 18lbs rifle through the trees to a shooting location can suck

 

[mpwolf]

Not to mention packing an 18lbs rifle through the trees to a shooting location can suck

well, yeah, but I've got other rifles for schlepping.

 

[kevin g]

MAN!!!!..What an awesome thread!!! I'd love to be able to watch some of them long range matches!..Here in good ol NS, 300 yds is a loooong range,((we have this one)) with most being 100 with the odd one at 200. Our club is in the process of building a 500 yard burmed range. I CAN'T WAIT!! I got a start on a 300-500 yd gun...a couple of Stainless Tikka Varmints...204 and a 223. The 204 will most likely be going...plan on keeping the 223, it's an 8 twist and I've been playing with 69 gr scednars with awesome 100 yard results so far!! Sometime in the next year or two, I am gonna get a new barrel from Jerry to start putting one together myself....on a Sav action. I love the 6mm and 6.5 bullets. Most likely I wil go with one of these two cals!...ahhhhh...to dream.....CGN just seems to keep it alive and well!!...Thankx NUTZ!!

 

[Meph]

Hey guys, how about we halt this debate and look at 6.5mms. Low recoil, longer barrel life than magnums, better than either .223 or .308. BTW, what's this about .308 having recoil? I fired a hundred rounds of 12ga, and it kicks more than a .308, especially a target rifle. I also fired a half box of 300 Win Mag, and my shoulder was never sore, all this was in the same day, benching (shotgun slugs, I got pretty good after 100 rounds. My Mossberg could take a deer at 100 yards easy with a rifled slug). You sure that all you guys are holding onto it right?

Mystic, I want to make a rifle in that 6.5 wildcat you designed. That stuff is awesome. Was thinking more of a varmint or planes game rifle for deer/antelope farther out. Won't be any time soon though, I'm still trying to save up for that scope for the 300 Win Mag target rifle you're helping me build.

 

[manitou210]

Meph your right the 6.5 is a great bullet, but what I have seen 6.5/284 barrels gone as low as 850 rounds to 1200 max, 6.5by 47 Lapua just not enough speed at 1000, to run against the big 7mms, I like the 260Rem it will push them down the track nicely.

Shoot with fellow named John with 6.5/06 fine shooting gun, and he can steer it but one you use a large case with small cal= short throat life.

 

[CyaN1de]

6.5-08 and it's Improved version can push a 140/142grn bullet at 6.5x284 velocities with good barrel life.

I am currently pushing 142grn Sierra's at 2920fps and it shoots well out to 900m/1000yds. If someone was looking to get into F-Class with this cartridge then they are shooting in the open class against all the other Open cart's.