- Location
- Sadly south of highway 40
im just shooting my new to me toz-17-01,and speaking of toz-17's anybody got one to spare i want another one,and a big thank you go's to BCRider for the great advice,thats what im going to stick to
22lr rifle cleaning
- Thread starter elijah_lee
- Start date
carpetmonkey
CGN Regular
- Location
- Beautiful British Columbia
I love this little VFG pocket cleaning kit; works better for me than a boresnake, when I clean my barrels, that is ...
The green patches are slightly gritty and soaked in light solvent, while the white ones are plain, and good for a final pass.
The green patches are slightly gritty and soaked in light solvent, while the white ones are plain, and good for a final pass.
- Location
- Sadly south of highway 40
any other input
People clean their .22s?
Jokes aside, I clean my bolt actions once a year whether they have shot a round or not. Otherwise it is only if I notice a drop in accuracy, which is often over 1500 rounds before that happens.
I have a semi auto pistol in .22lr that runs like a top for about 300 rounds before it starts to jam, that one I clean after every range trip.
Jokes aside, I clean my bolt actions once a year whether they have shot a round or not. Otherwise it is only if I notice a drop in accuracy, which is often over 1500 rounds before that happens.
I have a semi auto pistol in .22lr that runs like a top for about 300 rounds before it starts to jam, that one I clean after every range trip.
elimsprint
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Kelowna, BC
Remember to clean your bore snakes once in a while. I put mine in an old sock (it's mate disappeared to that magical place socks disappear to) and loosely tie the end to keep the bore snake in and then run it with the sock load in the laundry. They come out nice and clean
Kim
Kim
p14shooter
Regular
- Location
- Nova Scotia
This is definitely a topic worthy of discussion. Again.
For years, I have thought the same as most of you. Clean a 22? Why bother? However, I would challenge you to show me an Olympic shooter who does not clean. Now, most, if not all of us, are not Olympic shooters so it is probably not an accuracy thing for us. Some of us, me included, do shoot competitively, at least locally anyway, and always want to beat our nemesis. You stand a much better chance of beating him with a gun that has been cleaned and is shooting well than with an uncleaned gun. Have you ever used the excuse, "that 8 must have been a flier"? Was it bad ammunition, or was it improper care of your firearm?
I have recently read an article, http://www.rrdvegas.com/rimfire-cleaning.html , that has changed my perception of cleaning. It is lengthy and technical, but a must read. You do not have to read everything in it, but there are highlights that stand out. I have started a cleaning regimen to test out the facts for myself and so far, it is all making sense. As for the amount of rounds it takes to properly re-foul your barrel to make it shoot again, read the article and it helps explain it. So far, this winter, I have shot the best I have, but clearly more testing is in order to discern if it is me getting better, or better cleaning getting better results?
I encourage all of you to read this article, http://www.rrdvegas.com/rimfire-cleaning.html , and form your own results and opinions. After all, we do not do this professionally, he does, and professionals do know more than us, believe it or not.
I do know one thing for sure though, gun care products are for caring for your guns. Car care products are for caring for your car. I would not clean my brakes with a cleaner I have on my gun bench and would not clean my guns with something for my car.
Paul
For years, I have thought the same as most of you. Clean a 22? Why bother? However, I would challenge you to show me an Olympic shooter who does not clean. Now, most, if not all of us, are not Olympic shooters so it is probably not an accuracy thing for us. Some of us, me included, do shoot competitively, at least locally anyway, and always want to beat our nemesis. You stand a much better chance of beating him with a gun that has been cleaned and is shooting well than with an uncleaned gun. Have you ever used the excuse, "that 8 must have been a flier"? Was it bad ammunition, or was it improper care of your firearm?
I have recently read an article, http://www.rrdvegas.com/rimfire-cleaning.html , that has changed my perception of cleaning. It is lengthy and technical, but a must read. You do not have to read everything in it, but there are highlights that stand out. I have started a cleaning regimen to test out the facts for myself and so far, it is all making sense. As for the amount of rounds it takes to properly re-foul your barrel to make it shoot again, read the article and it helps explain it. So far, this winter, I have shot the best I have, but clearly more testing is in order to discern if it is me getting better, or better cleaning getting better results?
I encourage all of you to read this article, http://www.rrdvegas.com/rimfire-cleaning.html , and form your own results and opinions. After all, we do not do this professionally, he does, and professionals do know more than us, believe it or not.
I do know one thing for sure though, gun care products are for caring for your guns. Car care products are for caring for your car. I would not clean my brakes with a cleaner I have on my gun bench and would not clean my guns with something for my car.
Paul
That article is informative and full of good info. As you know with the internet forum members that won't like it will insist that they never clean and we should follow suit.Cleaning to a certain degree is a safe and standard practice.That writing has no inferior references that designate normal cleaning as overdone or not needed.Well written and very informative for a new and upcoming shooter.Lets wait and hear from the other crowd,it won't take long."lol" I'm with you good info there.My 2¢
R
R
I did notice, that he is a big fan of a one piece rod, and bore guide, and that he isn't fond of bore snakes.
carpetmonkey
CGN Regular
- Location
- Beautiful British Columbia
Makes sense, as snakes are best left to deserts, and trousers ...
He can be fond if he chooses to do so but doesn't tell you they don't work and can be detrimental to your gun,or don't use them as you will screw up your bore. This cleaning thing is a highly discussed without a great amount of research. Read the op statement he had a triple patch in a 17hmr what is that all about.
R
R
elimsprint
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Kelowna, BC
This is a recent newsletter from a gunsmith I really respect, Mike Bellm. Notice his comment about bore snakes!
Where to start?
How about with a reality check?
Short version:
It is over rated, overdone, and if done blindly does more damage than good in the long run.
Many will likely take strong exception, but much of this "scrub and shoot, scrub and shoot" does more damage than good, especially when done recklessly and without careful attention to detail.
Many of you in one-on-one conversations have listened to my story about "Charlie" who had very literally wiped away ALL the riflings down the bore for at least an inch and half scrubbing a 7mm Mag. barrel on a Mauser with high cheek piece. Clearing the cheek piece with his knuckles and thus putting upward pressure on the rod, the top side of the bore had a big groove worn down the length of the bore while the ends of the rifling and throat on the bottom side were totally pristine, clean and sharp.
Granted, this was an extreme situation, but it clearly demonstrated the damage a cleaning rod can do, especially in this instance using an aluminum cleaning rod. Except for an occasional cleaning with no other choice, keep those blasted aluminum and brass cleaning rods OUT of bores. Ditto for jointed steel cleaning rods! That's point one.
Soft metal gets grit embedded into it. Aluminum oxidizes. What is aluminum oxide? Taking a look at sharpening stones and sandpaper..... guess what. Many are made of aluminum oxide. It is not as sharp and aggressive as carborundum or silicon carbide, but it IS a hard, abrasive grit. Keep it OUT of your bores!
Point two, regarding all this shoot and scrub "breaking in a barrel" regimen that is vogue, I think truth be known one may make short term gains in accuracy related to the length of the bore while sacrificing total accuracy life of a barrel due to cleaning rod wear in that all-so-critical throat area where accuracy starts.
In a new barrel, it is common to feel changes in resistance on the cleaning rod with a tight brush going through the bore, and I am not against a little more brushing smoothing out the fouling between shots. Test firing barrels here in the shop, those tight spots tend to ease up in just a few shots with cleaning in between. But to just arbitrarily shoot and scrub shoot and scrub the snot out of a new barrel is in my opinion not the brightest thing to do in spite of "common wisdom" applied with reasoning left out of the picture.
At the other extreme are those that just flail a couple hundred rounds down a barrel with NO cleaning at all until a barrel settles in.
P.O. Ackley once commented it takes about 400 rounds for some barrels to settle in. This was before the shoot and scrub "thing" got started.
Shooting tight groups at 500 yards plus with Don Bower, we NEVER cleaned barrels, and Don just laughed at me when at the end of the first day of shooting 500 yards with him at Claremore, OK in '99 I suggested the group present clean their barrels.
Somewhere in between some common sense needs to rise to the top.
Some of the most accurate barrels I have seen have been barrels that are flat out worn out, won't group better than a .410 shotgun, then rechambered to a longer cartridge where the old worn out throat is cut out and a new throat cut forward of it.
Firelapping is simply accelerated wear. Bore scope a throat. Fire a firelapping round through it, then scope it again, and you will see a dramatic change in the surface finish. Cleaning and bore scoping between fire lapping shots, you can vividly see the wear, read enlargement, of the throat progress from shot to shot IF you are using a grit size that has much effect at all.
I'll concede that a FEW, FINE grit firelapping rounds to smooth a scorched throat is reasonable, but more extensive firelapping should be reserved for only those situations where it is done in a short chamber, THEN the barrel rechambered to a longer round that cuts out the fire lap damaged original throat.
Bench rest shoots make an issue of "coining" the bore, meaning copper fouling tends to cause bullets to press microscopic dents into the bore surface. OK. Then explain those barrels that have been badly neglected shooting thousands of rounds subsequently shooting like high dollar bench rest barrels when given a new throat. I've seen it time and again.
As a side note, so long as a barrel has not been allowed to rust or get pitted, the best "new" barrel is a well worn OLD barrel rechambered to a longer cartridge with a proper thoat and also precision recrowned. Making a treasure out of trash can be quite a rewarding bargain.
Point three.
In ANY cleaning, the first objective is to minimize any potential for damage to the delicate throat and crown areas.
Coated rods minimize the risk potentials, but ANY dirt or grit will to some degree abrade the delicate ends of the rifling at the throat where force on the rod bending it is funneled into the bore by the throat.
A hard stainless steel, polished smooth, CLEAN rod is probably actually the safest rod to use. My favorite cleaning rod in the shop is a hard, stainless steel section of an old 104" CB whip antenna my bud, Danne, made for me eons ago, accompanied by a steel rod threaded for brushes and jags. Next choice is the Dewey coated rods for occasional use.
Enough of that.......
First advice cleaning any barrel is to have it held stationary so you can give some care to centering the rod in the chamber as you push the rod through the bore.
Consider this. With a break open gun with the barrel installed, lay it flat on a piece of plywood. Mark several points along the barrel, forend, and the grip area. Screw in some long "grabber" screws. Slip pieces of rubber gas line or plastic tubing over the screws to protect the gun's finishes. Screw or clamp the piece of plywood to a bench at about waist level. Lay the gun securely between the padded screws. This keeps the gun (barrel) from moving around and gives you much better control of the rod.
The matter of cleaning rod guides.......
I have YET to see ANY rod guide sold that actually keeps the rod OFF of the throat! If one exists, enlighten me.
The best and easiest rod guide to make is a sized case with the neck diameter reduced to fit closely to the cleaning rod and the likewise the primer pocket drilled out to match the rod diameter. Slide the case onto the rod, then with the brush or patch started into the bore, slip the case into the chamber. The reduced diameter of the neck will HOLD THE ROD CENTERED IN THE BORE AND OFF OF THE THROAT.
THAT IS WHAT SHOULD BE ACCOMPLISHED. Keep the rod OFF of the ends of the rifling at the throat.
Also, minimize dragging the rod over the edge of the crown. Crowns get cleaning rod damage also, but are easier and cheaper to "fix" than throat damage.
When all is said and done, the "Bore Snake" is actually one of the best methods for cleaning.
Solvents......
This is wide open.
Short version: Do more soaking and less stroking.
If copper fouling is chronically severe breaking in a barrel, use a copper solvent following the manufacturer's guidelines. Ammoniated solvents can pit the daylights out of bores if not used carefully.
Kroil is quite popular as a solvent for loosening fouling. Lately I've been toying seriously with PB Blaster penetrating oil and lean toward it over Kroil at this point.
Mercury Outboard Motors used to and may still sell a spray carbon solvent that some bench rest shooters were fond of some years back. It works well as a bore solvent.
I can't say I have used every bore solvent made, but have gone through quarts of most of the popular solvents over the years and can't say I have found that "silver bullet" bore solvent that shines above all others. A good bronze brush with whatever solvent does the major portion of the work.
In summation,
1) Until and unless you definitely must work out some cleaning regimen to keep group sizes minimum, keep the cleaning to a minimum, meaning, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
2) Repeating, do more soaking and less stroking.
3) Pay close attention to and minimize wear and tear on the delicate throat of the barrel.
4) And the obvious, of course, is to protect the bore, whether "blued steel" OR stain less from rust and corrosion. I said stain..... less. Stainless is NOT totally rust or corrosion proof. Moisture and different metals produce the galvanic effect that feeds corrosion. Read steel and copper. Different metals.
Don't ignore stainless barrels. Give them at least a wet patch before setting them aside.
This has been a "you asked for it, you got it" chapter and verse of Bellm that no doubt will draw flak from many quarters, but that is how I see it.
Shoot Smart,
Mike Bellm
Where to start?
How about with a reality check?
Short version:
It is over rated, overdone, and if done blindly does more damage than good in the long run.
Many will likely take strong exception, but much of this "scrub and shoot, scrub and shoot" does more damage than good, especially when done recklessly and without careful attention to detail.
Many of you in one-on-one conversations have listened to my story about "Charlie" who had very literally wiped away ALL the riflings down the bore for at least an inch and half scrubbing a 7mm Mag. barrel on a Mauser with high cheek piece. Clearing the cheek piece with his knuckles and thus putting upward pressure on the rod, the top side of the bore had a big groove worn down the length of the bore while the ends of the rifling and throat on the bottom side were totally pristine, clean and sharp.
Granted, this was an extreme situation, but it clearly demonstrated the damage a cleaning rod can do, especially in this instance using an aluminum cleaning rod. Except for an occasional cleaning with no other choice, keep those blasted aluminum and brass cleaning rods OUT of bores. Ditto for jointed steel cleaning rods! That's point one.
Soft metal gets grit embedded into it. Aluminum oxidizes. What is aluminum oxide? Taking a look at sharpening stones and sandpaper..... guess what. Many are made of aluminum oxide. It is not as sharp and aggressive as carborundum or silicon carbide, but it IS a hard, abrasive grit. Keep it OUT of your bores!
Point two, regarding all this shoot and scrub "breaking in a barrel" regimen that is vogue, I think truth be known one may make short term gains in accuracy related to the length of the bore while sacrificing total accuracy life of a barrel due to cleaning rod wear in that all-so-critical throat area where accuracy starts.
In a new barrel, it is common to feel changes in resistance on the cleaning rod with a tight brush going through the bore, and I am not against a little more brushing smoothing out the fouling between shots. Test firing barrels here in the shop, those tight spots tend to ease up in just a few shots with cleaning in between. But to just arbitrarily shoot and scrub shoot and scrub the snot out of a new barrel is in my opinion not the brightest thing to do in spite of "common wisdom" applied with reasoning left out of the picture.
At the other extreme are those that just flail a couple hundred rounds down a barrel with NO cleaning at all until a barrel settles in.
P.O. Ackley once commented it takes about 400 rounds for some barrels to settle in. This was before the shoot and scrub "thing" got started.
Shooting tight groups at 500 yards plus with Don Bower, we NEVER cleaned barrels, and Don just laughed at me when at the end of the first day of shooting 500 yards with him at Claremore, OK in '99 I suggested the group present clean their barrels.
Somewhere in between some common sense needs to rise to the top.
Some of the most accurate barrels I have seen have been barrels that are flat out worn out, won't group better than a .410 shotgun, then rechambered to a longer cartridge where the old worn out throat is cut out and a new throat cut forward of it.
Firelapping is simply accelerated wear. Bore scope a throat. Fire a firelapping round through it, then scope it again, and you will see a dramatic change in the surface finish. Cleaning and bore scoping between fire lapping shots, you can vividly see the wear, read enlargement, of the throat progress from shot to shot IF you are using a grit size that has much effect at all.
I'll concede that a FEW, FINE grit firelapping rounds to smooth a scorched throat is reasonable, but more extensive firelapping should be reserved for only those situations where it is done in a short chamber, THEN the barrel rechambered to a longer round that cuts out the fire lap damaged original throat.
Bench rest shoots make an issue of "coining" the bore, meaning copper fouling tends to cause bullets to press microscopic dents into the bore surface. OK. Then explain those barrels that have been badly neglected shooting thousands of rounds subsequently shooting like high dollar bench rest barrels when given a new throat. I've seen it time and again.
As a side note, so long as a barrel has not been allowed to rust or get pitted, the best "new" barrel is a well worn OLD barrel rechambered to a longer cartridge with a proper thoat and also precision recrowned. Making a treasure out of trash can be quite a rewarding bargain.
Point three.
In ANY cleaning, the first objective is to minimize any potential for damage to the delicate throat and crown areas.
Coated rods minimize the risk potentials, but ANY dirt or grit will to some degree abrade the delicate ends of the rifling at the throat where force on the rod bending it is funneled into the bore by the throat.
A hard stainless steel, polished smooth, CLEAN rod is probably actually the safest rod to use. My favorite cleaning rod in the shop is a hard, stainless steel section of an old 104" CB whip antenna my bud, Danne, made for me eons ago, accompanied by a steel rod threaded for brushes and jags. Next choice is the Dewey coated rods for occasional use.
Enough of that.......
First advice cleaning any barrel is to have it held stationary so you can give some care to centering the rod in the chamber as you push the rod through the bore.
Consider this. With a break open gun with the barrel installed, lay it flat on a piece of plywood. Mark several points along the barrel, forend, and the grip area. Screw in some long "grabber" screws. Slip pieces of rubber gas line or plastic tubing over the screws to protect the gun's finishes. Screw or clamp the piece of plywood to a bench at about waist level. Lay the gun securely between the padded screws. This keeps the gun (barrel) from moving around and gives you much better control of the rod.
The matter of cleaning rod guides.......
I have YET to see ANY rod guide sold that actually keeps the rod OFF of the throat! If one exists, enlighten me.
The best and easiest rod guide to make is a sized case with the neck diameter reduced to fit closely to the cleaning rod and the likewise the primer pocket drilled out to match the rod diameter. Slide the case onto the rod, then with the brush or patch started into the bore, slip the case into the chamber. The reduced diameter of the neck will HOLD THE ROD CENTERED IN THE BORE AND OFF OF THE THROAT.
THAT IS WHAT SHOULD BE ACCOMPLISHED. Keep the rod OFF of the ends of the rifling at the throat.
Also, minimize dragging the rod over the edge of the crown. Crowns get cleaning rod damage also, but are easier and cheaper to "fix" than throat damage.
When all is said and done, the "Bore Snake" is actually one of the best methods for cleaning.
Solvents......
This is wide open.
Short version: Do more soaking and less stroking.
If copper fouling is chronically severe breaking in a barrel, use a copper solvent following the manufacturer's guidelines. Ammoniated solvents can pit the daylights out of bores if not used carefully.
Kroil is quite popular as a solvent for loosening fouling. Lately I've been toying seriously with PB Blaster penetrating oil and lean toward it over Kroil at this point.
Mercury Outboard Motors used to and may still sell a spray carbon solvent that some bench rest shooters were fond of some years back. It works well as a bore solvent.
I can't say I have used every bore solvent made, but have gone through quarts of most of the popular solvents over the years and can't say I have found that "silver bullet" bore solvent that shines above all others. A good bronze brush with whatever solvent does the major portion of the work.
In summation,
1) Until and unless you definitely must work out some cleaning regimen to keep group sizes minimum, keep the cleaning to a minimum, meaning, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
2) Repeating, do more soaking and less stroking.
3) Pay close attention to and minimize wear and tear on the delicate throat of the barrel.
4) And the obvious, of course, is to protect the bore, whether "blued steel" OR stain less from rust and corrosion. I said stain..... less. Stainless is NOT totally rust or corrosion proof. Moisture and different metals produce the galvanic effect that feeds corrosion. Read steel and copper. Different metals.
Don't ignore stainless barrels. Give them at least a wet patch before setting them aside.
This has been a "you asked for it, you got it" chapter and verse of Bellm that no doubt will draw flak from many quarters, but that is how I see it.
Shoot Smart,
Mike Bellm
elimsprint
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Kelowna, BC
Another newsletter on solvents, very informative.
Today marks my 35th year doing barrel work.
It was 35 long, tedious years ago February 2, 1979 that I signed on the dotted line that set the course for the last 35 years working for some of THE very best people on the planet, YOU, my fellow shooters!
So, thank you for the opportunity to serve!
From February 2, 1979 until the final twilight years of P.O. Ackley's life, I had the shoulders of a giant to stand on and learn from. Up until the time P.O.'s health took him to a nursing home, he was still spending just about every day in his backyard shop in Salt Lake City, UT and always ready to pass on whatever he knew about our craft.
I cannot consider my own 35 years doing what I do without homage to P.O.
CLEANING BARRELS.........
WOW!
Talk about an overwhelming response to a topic!
Yesterday brought a flood of email.
Interestingly, there were no nay sayers at all!
I thought for sure I had assassinated some Holy Cows when it comes to the shoot & scrub barrel break in crowd.
Three quick points about borescopes, penetrating oils, and crowns, then I must move on.
One question in regard to wear at the crown is whether to only brush one way or both directions with the thesis being that pulling the brush back across the edges of the crown puts excess wear on it or not.
The benchrest purists tend to push the brush through the bore, then unscrew it each time. IF the edge of the crown is sharp, yes, the brush can result in irregular wear at the crown pulling it back through the bore. This is why I lean toward lightly breaking the sharp edge of the crown cut so the edge is stronger, less delicate.
Is pulling the brush back through the bore likely to result in a deterioration of accuracy? Perhaps over a long period of time, but functionally, I have not seen it in the barrels that come through here.
Next item I found particularly interesting is a test of various penetrating/solvent type oils, thanks to B.A.
Copying what he sent:
Penetrating Oils
Machinist's Workshop magazine recently published some information on various penetrating oils that I found very interesting. Some of you might appreciate this.
The magazine reports they tested penetrates for break out torque on rusted nuts. They are below, as forwarded by an ex-student and professional machinist.
They arranged a subjective test of all the popular penetrates with the control being the torque required to remove the nut from a "scientifically rusted" environment.
*Penetrating oils ........... Average torque load to loosen*
No Oil used ................... 516 pounds
WD-40 ..................... ... 238 pounds
PB Blaster .................... 214 pounds
Liquid Wrench ...............127 pounds
Kano Kroil .................... 106 pounds
ATF*-Acetone mix......... 53 pounds
The ATF-Acetone mix is a "home brew" mix of 50 - 50 automatic transmission fluid and acetone. Note this "home brew" released bolts better than any commercial product in this one particular test. Our local machinist group mixed up a batch and we all now use it with equally good results. Note also that "Liquid Wrench" is almost as good as "Kroil" for about 20% of the price.
Steve from Godwin-Singer says that ATF-Acetone mix is best, but you can also use ATF and lacquer thinner in a 50-50 mix.
*ATF=Automatic Transmission Fluid
____________
It was sometime last year I learned about the ATF and acetone mix, which I have not tested much as yet, but the results shown above are quite an eye opener.
How it will work as a bore solvent remains to be seen, but ATF is known for its high detergency.
Nor have I used Liquid Wrench yet for bore solvent.
None of this is intended to take away from or discount the bore solvents sold commercially just for the purpose of cleaning bores, mind you, and why we are looking farther at common products is a good question.
It is probably safe to say that to various degrees they are all good, and the bronze brush is still what does much of the work removing fouling. But if there is something that tends to loosen crud in the bore better than something else and minimize stroking rods through the bore, it is worth considering.
Along these lines were a lot of questions about the Bore Snake, which I confess I have not used myself but on general principles like it because no rod is rubbing on the throat or crown.
As for crud and debris accumulated in the Bore Snake..... clean it. In the shop I use a lot of white gas, ie, Coleman camp stove fuel, for washing/degreasing parts. The aerosol cans of CRC brake cleaner are not very expensive, very convenient, and better yet for cleaning/degreasing.
Third item......
Is it clean? And what is the condition of my bore, throat, and crown?
The Hawkeye Borescope gets frequent use here but is a bit on the spendy side for many folks. For less than half the money, Larry Willis has an alternative to the Hawkeye: http://larrywillis.com/
I have not used it myself, but it looks like a very good way to see first off if you really need to get more aggressive with bore cleaning and just how effective your cleaning methods are...... as well as checking for wear and imperfections in the throat or crown.
Make that four points to cover.......
It should be obvious, but in answer to a number of comments I would never put a barrel or gun aside for any length of time without protecting it from rust and corrosion, whether it was a blued steel or stainless steel gun or barrel.
In the arid western climates where we are, folks seem to get away with hunting, putting the gun away without cleaning, and not ending up with pitted bores, and at least a flash of rust.
On the other hand, it is somewhat discouraging seeing the condition of some barrels sent in that obviously have been neglected.
Growing up and living in the midwest, I never could get away without at least wiping blued guns down and running a solvent wet patch or oiled patch through the bore before putting it away.
All the best......
Mike Bellm
Today marks my 35th year doing barrel work.
It was 35 long, tedious years ago February 2, 1979 that I signed on the dotted line that set the course for the last 35 years working for some of THE very best people on the planet, YOU, my fellow shooters!
So, thank you for the opportunity to serve!
From February 2, 1979 until the final twilight years of P.O. Ackley's life, I had the shoulders of a giant to stand on and learn from. Up until the time P.O.'s health took him to a nursing home, he was still spending just about every day in his backyard shop in Salt Lake City, UT and always ready to pass on whatever he knew about our craft.
I cannot consider my own 35 years doing what I do without homage to P.O.
CLEANING BARRELS.........
WOW!
Talk about an overwhelming response to a topic!
Yesterday brought a flood of email.
Interestingly, there were no nay sayers at all!
I thought for sure I had assassinated some Holy Cows when it comes to the shoot & scrub barrel break in crowd.
Three quick points about borescopes, penetrating oils, and crowns, then I must move on.
One question in regard to wear at the crown is whether to only brush one way or both directions with the thesis being that pulling the brush back across the edges of the crown puts excess wear on it or not.
The benchrest purists tend to push the brush through the bore, then unscrew it each time. IF the edge of the crown is sharp, yes, the brush can result in irregular wear at the crown pulling it back through the bore. This is why I lean toward lightly breaking the sharp edge of the crown cut so the edge is stronger, less delicate.
Is pulling the brush back through the bore likely to result in a deterioration of accuracy? Perhaps over a long period of time, but functionally, I have not seen it in the barrels that come through here.
Next item I found particularly interesting is a test of various penetrating/solvent type oils, thanks to B.A.
Copying what he sent:
Penetrating Oils
Machinist's Workshop magazine recently published some information on various penetrating oils that I found very interesting. Some of you might appreciate this.
The magazine reports they tested penetrates for break out torque on rusted nuts. They are below, as forwarded by an ex-student and professional machinist.
They arranged a subjective test of all the popular penetrates with the control being the torque required to remove the nut from a "scientifically rusted" environment.
*Penetrating oils ........... Average torque load to loosen*
No Oil used ................... 516 pounds
WD-40 ..................... ... 238 pounds
PB Blaster .................... 214 pounds
Liquid Wrench ...............127 pounds
Kano Kroil .................... 106 pounds
ATF*-Acetone mix......... 53 pounds
The ATF-Acetone mix is a "home brew" mix of 50 - 50 automatic transmission fluid and acetone. Note this "home brew" released bolts better than any commercial product in this one particular test. Our local machinist group mixed up a batch and we all now use it with equally good results. Note also that "Liquid Wrench" is almost as good as "Kroil" for about 20% of the price.
Steve from Godwin-Singer says that ATF-Acetone mix is best, but you can also use ATF and lacquer thinner in a 50-50 mix.
*ATF=Automatic Transmission Fluid
____________
It was sometime last year I learned about the ATF and acetone mix, which I have not tested much as yet, but the results shown above are quite an eye opener.
How it will work as a bore solvent remains to be seen, but ATF is known for its high detergency.
Nor have I used Liquid Wrench yet for bore solvent.
None of this is intended to take away from or discount the bore solvents sold commercially just for the purpose of cleaning bores, mind you, and why we are looking farther at common products is a good question.
It is probably safe to say that to various degrees they are all good, and the bronze brush is still what does much of the work removing fouling. But if there is something that tends to loosen crud in the bore better than something else and minimize stroking rods through the bore, it is worth considering.
Along these lines were a lot of questions about the Bore Snake, which I confess I have not used myself but on general principles like it because no rod is rubbing on the throat or crown.
As for crud and debris accumulated in the Bore Snake..... clean it. In the shop I use a lot of white gas, ie, Coleman camp stove fuel, for washing/degreasing parts. The aerosol cans of CRC brake cleaner are not very expensive, very convenient, and better yet for cleaning/degreasing.
Third item......
Is it clean? And what is the condition of my bore, throat, and crown?
The Hawkeye Borescope gets frequent use here but is a bit on the spendy side for many folks. For less than half the money, Larry Willis has an alternative to the Hawkeye: http://larrywillis.com/
I have not used it myself, but it looks like a very good way to see first off if you really need to get more aggressive with bore cleaning and just how effective your cleaning methods are...... as well as checking for wear and imperfections in the throat or crown.
Make that four points to cover.......
It should be obvious, but in answer to a number of comments I would never put a barrel or gun aside for any length of time without protecting it from rust and corrosion, whether it was a blued steel or stainless steel gun or barrel.
In the arid western climates where we are, folks seem to get away with hunting, putting the gun away without cleaning, and not ending up with pitted bores, and at least a flash of rust.
On the other hand, it is somewhat discouraging seeing the condition of some barrels sent in that obviously have been neglected.
Growing up and living in the midwest, I never could get away without at least wiping blued guns down and running a solvent wet patch or oiled patch through the bore before putting it away.
All the best......
Mike Bellm
Elimsprint You have written some very good common sense items to look for when approaching cleaning.The acetone atf recipe I have used for years on stubborn rusted bolts and nuts with great success.You do need to keep it a small squeeze bottle for storage and it must be shaken before use as the chemicals separate from each other when set at rest. Not really a problem but shake first and you are good to go.I only shoot rim fire but cleaning is cleaning just not so stringent as it is to center fire.You may like to try "Sea Foam" as an alternative bore cleaner it works great on rim fire,also goes a good job of wiping down after the coveted cleaning process.It is a breath of fresh air to break 50 years of bad habits and the old boy syndrome.
Keep up the good posts.Common sense prevails.
I wait with you to see the flack and wrath from the keyboard cleaning cowboys and the anti bore snake fellows. My2¢
R
Keep up the good posts.Common sense prevails.
I wait with you to see the flack and wrath from the keyboard cleaning cowboys and the anti bore snake fellows. My2¢
R
elimsprint
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Kelowna, BC
Not my words, verbatim quotes of Mike Bellm's newsletters, a great gunsmith, protege of PO Ackley and TC guru that I really admire. I use his products in my TC Encores.
Wipe out!! or patch out and don't use those cheepo screw together cleaning rods or the ones with diamond cut attachments that make it easier to screw in they are very abrasive especially when you get contaminates get trapped between the diamond cuts then stroke the rod. I have some one piece coated rods not abrasive at all, and they spin freely. You probably won't need a brush of any sort if you leave the wipe out in for a couple hours or overnight. It's a foam that tends to stay foamy for a good while. Also probably just not clean it often if it works good don't change it till it's not working good. It's said most people do more damage cleaning than shooting. Oil or grease how you would don't overthink it .22 doesn't wear out very fast apparently.
Does carbon, unburnt powder, or any other shooting byproducts cause corrosion?
For a semi, does spraying remmington degreaser in the action, working it back and forth a bit, then spraying Remington oil in and working it back and forth do a good job? I'm hoping to avoid disassembly and the associated risks (stripped screws, etc). Any reason to not do this after every session?
Seems leaving the barrel until accuracy sucks is advisable? Or does that encourage corrosion?
I've been boresnaking with some Bore bright just behind the wire brush embedded in the snake. Should I put oil at the end of it to hopefully leave a coating?
Reliability and preservation is my concern for a couple of my guns.
Accuracy is my concern for a couple others. Does this mean cleaning practices should differ?
Also, what about a 12g pump? Bore bright n snake after every session and oil the action?
For a semi, does spraying remmington degreaser in the action, working it back and forth a bit, then spraying Remington oil in and working it back and forth do a good job? I'm hoping to avoid disassembly and the associated risks (stripped screws, etc). Any reason to not do this after every session?
Seems leaving the barrel until accuracy sucks is advisable? Or does that encourage corrosion?
I've been boresnaking with some Bore bright just behind the wire brush embedded in the snake. Should I put oil at the end of it to hopefully leave a coating?
Reliability and preservation is my concern for a couple of my guns.
Accuracy is my concern for a couple others. Does this mean cleaning practices should differ?
Also, what about a 12g pump? Bore bright n snake after every session and oil the action?
elimsprint
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Kelowna, BC
All of the byproducts of ignition can cause some degree of corrosion but from what I have read the worst is the water vapour from the combustion process. That said it does evaporate fairly quickly in a warm barrel. As to spraying degreaser and then oil seems a little counter intuitive as the degreaser would break down the oil unless you can completely remove the degreaser which would require disassembly so no, I wouldn't do that. I usually run a dry bore-snake through my semis/bolt actions at the end of a shooting session and only use cleaner when I am going to fully strip the gun for a complete cleaning and I only do that when the action starts to cycle poorly. As to oiling the barrel let me quote another Mike Bellm newsletter:
Still, the advice remains:
1) Do more soaking and less stroking.
2) Whatever your choice of cleaning rod, keep it clean so grit and grime is not abrading the throat in an irregular manner.
3) A bore guide that does not positively center the rod AT the beginning of the throat still lets the rod rub at the ends of the rifling. Bore guides can give a false sense of security and probably are not doing the good they are intended to do.
4) Just be conscious of the potential wear and tear on the throat and crown areas..... be gentle to them.
5) No aluminum or brass cleaning rods, and jointed steel rods only for emergencies in the field.
6) Not mentioned before, and with apologies for the oversight,
DRY PATCH BEFORE SHOOTING!
If you are one fretting over the potential "coining" of the bore from copper fouling, I will assure you that much oil in the bore will definitely dent the bore. Oil just does not like to be compressed by bullets, and it WILL dent the bore, so once again, make sure the bore is dry before you shoot.
Quote finished, my thoughts again,
I hardly ever clean my shotguns other than brushing the barrel with a dry nylon or brass brush to remove the plastic fouling from the wads after a shooting session as that fouling can trap moisture from the combustion process for a long period of time or so I am told. I do disassemble them at least once a year to clean any crud from the action that might affect functioning and I scrub the barrel with cleaner then.
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Popcan', the fouling from smokeless powder and modern primers is not corrosive nor does it attract and hold moisture more aggressively than the bare metal. The conditions you store your gun under will determine the rust risk equally for external and internal surfaces.
But of course if you get guns that shoot military surplus ammo or delve into the black powder and black powder substitutes that's a whole other issue.
One thing that the Mike Belim write up has convinced me of is that I should be cleaning and storing my cleaning rods better. At the moment I just stand them up in the corner. But I think I'm going to work at being more careful with how I handle and store them. Hell, just resting it on the desk top while I prep another patch is possibly picking up fine grit on the rod.
And he makes a very valid point on the aspect of hard steel vs brass or aluminium. The softer metal will pick up and pressure will embed dust or other grit in the metal. That's how lapping is done in metal working. A softer material for the lap to hold the abrasive and it cuts into the harder metal. So while it seems wrong somehow to use a hard steel rod it's actually the better option. Just use it with a conical bore protector to ensure you don't get pressure marks from the steel to steel contact that would occur otherwise.
But of course if you get guns that shoot military surplus ammo or delve into the black powder and black powder substitutes that's a whole other issue.
One thing that the Mike Belim write up has convinced me of is that I should be cleaning and storing my cleaning rods better. At the moment I just stand them up in the corner. But I think I'm going to work at being more careful with how I handle and store them. Hell, just resting it on the desk top while I prep another patch is possibly picking up fine grit on the rod.
And he makes a very valid point on the aspect of hard steel vs brass or aluminium. The softer metal will pick up and pressure will embed dust or other grit in the metal. That's how lapping is done in metal working. A softer material for the lap to hold the abrasive and it cuts into the harder metal. So while it seems wrong somehow to use a hard steel rod it's actually the better option. Just use it with a conical bore protector to ensure you don't get pressure marks from the steel to steel contact that would occur otherwise.
