.25-06 for Elk?

[c-fbmi]

As I said previously I have never personally seen it and was only saying Elmer wrote of multiple elk he had apparently dissected and found with bullet scarred lungs. This concurred with the other article referred to in this thread, adding some creedence to the article in question.
This whole tangent is off course to the op's question, which I responded to much earlier.

 

[burnt_servo]

Elmer Keith writes in his different books of 3 separate bull elk he had taken with lung scarring consistent with healed smaller caliber bullet traces through the lungs. I found it difficult to buy, but there is more and more evidence as the years go by.

is it possible the scarring was from wounds from fighting during rut ?

 

[captonion]

One of Elmer's statements also was to the effect that the 270 (which I have rarely hunted with - so its not personal ) was NOT adquate for deer sized animals and would probably make a good 'coyote' round .

Elmer Keith's writings are full of self loving blowbag stories...Yes Stories!...Some very true, some with traces of truth, and then there is tinfoil hat stuff...

I do believe it is called a matter of honor when you call a man a liar.

Anyone who hated the .270 Win to the point, to call it a coyote round at best, and boast that a 357mag is a wonderful deer round has to be questioned..That and he took alot of chances that people would call unethical by todays standards, like shooting a deer at 600yd with a hand gun....Not alot of mention about the wounding/missing that went on with his stunt shooting..Taking chances like Elmer did, he had more than his share of mishaps...Entertaining, yes, but less than honorable IMO..

Another author I enjoyed was John "Pondoro" Taylor, Far better writer than Elmer, but this man was an Ivory Poacher...Who would read an artical today written by a poacher?

 

[Calum]

I have several friends who knew Elmer quite well, and apparently the last person to call BS to his face ended up looking down the business end of a 4" Mod 29 Smith, with Skeeter Skelton and Bill Jordan backing him!!

Did this stupidity really happen?

Becouse if it did then these are the type of people that should not have access to firearms. And I'll be sure to avoid recommending or reading anything written by those three in the future.

 

[9.3mauser]

I have seen a big bear (in the 500lb range) shot in the lungs with a 22mag that didn't go a couple hundred yards...Also a cow moose taken in the same way with a single shot from a 22mag...

Are we down to recommending the .22WMR for big game now? Not only is it unethical, I can't think of anyplace where it would be legal. Even elephants have been killed with a .22 LR but that hardly makes it an appropriate choice. We've all read stories about how so-and-so got shot in the head with a .22 and live to tell the tale. Sometimes they didn't even realize they'd been shot for decades. Can anyone on here honestly say they've heard of someone being shot in the head with a .30-06 or .338 that's still around to tell the tale?

At some point, shooting over distance, the .25-06 becomes a 25-20. Would anybody seriously recommend the .25-20 as an moose/elk cartridge at any distance?

The big X-factor in the equation is the man behind the gun. We don't know if he's good, bad, or indifferent as a rifle shot. We don't know if he's cool calm and collected, or if he get's wildly excitable in the presence of game. We don't know if he has the willpower to turn down quartering or frontal shots at the only animal he may see over the course of a season.

This thread, and many others on this site seem to have devolved into a contest over who can shoot the largest animal with the smallest calibre. It's the bullet that does the work, and to do that job it has to penetrate. Momentum is what gives us penetration, and momentum is acheived by velocity X mass. Bigger bullets will penetrate better than smaller ones. The extra weight and frontal area give you a certain amount of margin for error.

I don't want a calibre that's adequate when conditions are perfect. I want a calibre that will give me some margin of error when conditions aren't perfect or when things go wrong. Misjudging range, wind drift, bullet deflection, or shooters flinch can all send bullets to places where they weren't intended to go. We've heard a lot on this thread about how many animals were felled by small bore rifles, but not much about how many were wounded and lost.

I'm more of an O'Connorite than a Keithian, and bullet placement is everything. But we still need to apply come common sense and realize there is a practical limit on how small you should go for a given species. My line in the sand for game elk size and up is the .30-06.

If you need to ask, that's telling me you're inexperienced, either a new hunter or hunting larger animals for the first time.

If you're an experienced hunter with ice water in his veins, then you really wouldn't be asking for advice to begin with.

 

[Boomer]

Elmer's opinion of the .270 came from a time when only simple cup and core bullets were available, and some of these were on the fragile side. His observations were honest and pertinent.

As for the .25/06, a pal of mine has used it and the 7X57 extensively on game and is of the opinion that when loaded with appropriate bullets, one kills as well as the other. Whether that's an endorsement of the .25/06 or a condemnation of the 7X57, I'll let you decide.

 

[shortaction]

Are we down to recommending the .22WMR for big game now? Not only is it unethical, I can't think of anyplace where it would be legal. Even elephants have been killed with a .22 LR but that hardly makes it an appropriate choice. We've all read stories about how so-and-so got shot in the head with a .22 and live to tell the tale. Sometimes they didn't even realize they'd been shot for decades. Can anyone on here honestly say they've heard of someone being shot in the head with a .30-06 or .338 that's still around to tell the tale?

At some point, shooting over distance, the .25-06 becomes a 25-20. Would anybody seriously recommend the .25-20 as an moose/elk cartridge at any distance?

The big X-factor in the equation is the man behind the gun. We don't know if he's good, bad, or indifferent as a rifle shot. We don't know if he's cool calm and collected, or if he get's wildly excitable in the presence of game. We don't know if he has the willpower to turn down quartering or frontal shots at the only animal he may see over the course of a season.

This thread, and many others on this site seem to have devolved into a contest over who can shoot the largest animal with the smallest calibre. It's the bullet that does the work, and to do that job it has to penetrate. Momentum is what gives us penetration, and momentum is acheived by velocity X mass. Bigger bullets will penetrate better than smaller ones. The extra weight and frontal area give you a certain amount of margin for error.

I don't want a calibre that's adequate when conditions are perfect. I want a calibre that will give me some margin of error when conditions aren't perfect or when things go wrong. Misjudging range, wind drift, bullet deflection, or shooters flinch can all send bullets to places where they weren't intended to go. We've heard a lot on this thread about how many animals were felled by small bore rifles, but not much about how many were wounded and lost.

I'm more of an O'Connorite than a Keithian, and bullet placement is everything. But we still need to apply come common sense and realize there is a practical limit on how small you should go for a given species. My line in the sand for game elk size and up is the .30-06.

If you need to ask, that's telling me you're inexperienced, either a new hunter or hunting larger animals for the first time.

If you're an experienced hunter with ice water in his veins, then you really wouldn't be asking for advice to begin with.

There are so many incorrect assumptions in this rant it is hard to fathom!

The 2 most outrageous though,

1st comparing a 25-06 to a 25-20!
A 25-06 will never be a 25-20 at any range as the 25-20 was never loaded with bullets of the same S.D. or construction. Even with the light poorly constructdd bullets the 25-20 was loaded with it took many, many White-tails of all sizes in my area. No, there wasn't piles of rotting carcasses in the woods after season either. Most of these deer where shot in front of dogs and ranges where usually under 100yds.

2nd bigger bullets don't penetrate better than smaller ones.

I've shot lots of deer with a 35 rem and 200gr bullets and there is no way that combo compares to my 7mm-08's with 120gr TSX or 140gr regular Winchester Power Points or Remington Core-lokts.

Bullets with higher S.D. of similar construction driven near the same speed will increase penetration.

 

[saskcop]

120 grain Partition in the .25-06 is decent enough elk medicine at normal shooting distances. As usual, shot placement is what counts. Elk are not armour plated, but they are tougher than many other animals.

 

[beretta_boy]

Alittle heavier caliber never hurts. Accuracy is excellent until you miss the money shot!

 

[captonion]

Are we down to recommending the .22WMR for big game now? .

Nobody said any such thing! There was a dicussion of Elk surviving a double lung hit with small bore rifle...Just stating what I have personally witnessed on other game that were lung shot with a 22mag..

Pretty good rant though 9.3mauser, but if you read back this has been all covered over the last 64 replies...All but the person shot in the head with a 30-06, or 338...Not sure where that came from, but hay, thanx for the entertainment.

 

[9.3mauser]

A 25-06 will never be a 25-20

No, there wasn't piles of rotting carcasses in the woods after season either. Mo

2nd bigger bullets don't penetrate better than smaller ones.

Bullets with higher S.D. of similar construction driven near the same speed will increase penetration.

1. Once the velocity drops below approx. 1800 fps, there will be no appreciable expansion of a bullet designed to be fired at 3000 fps+. A .25 calibre bullet that does not expand will NOT be more effective than a .25-20

2. I've found three moose carcasses over the past 20 yrs that have been wounded and lost by other hunters. Poor shooting or poor calibre choice, it doesn't matter much, it's still three too many. If this is such a valuable resource, and we're so worried about the public perception of hunters, why take chances with marginal calibres.

3. You're telling me that a 120 gr 25-06 Nosler partition with an s.d of 260 will out penetrate a .338 210gr Nosler partion with an s.d. of .263 driven at the same velocity? That I would like to see. Maybe you'd like to test the theory out on a brown bear?

4. A 150 gr .270 bullet will outpenetrate a 150 gr. .30-06 bullet of similar construction. Never said it wouldn't.

 

[9.3mauser]

if you read back this has been all covered over the last 64 replies...

I've been following this thread for a while and tried to bite my tongue, but the .22WMR comment was just too much.

 

[captonion]

I've been following this thread for a while and tried to bite my tongue, but the .22WMR comment was just too much.

Only telling what I know...No more no less...Wasn't me doin the shooting...

A friend of mine shot the problem bear that was breaking the apple trees in front yard of his fathers house when he was 15(over 20yrs ago) or so...Bear ran across the yard, and just made it over the stone fence before doing the death moan...

Saw someone shooting from the roadway as we came around the corner..The shooter jumped into the truck and drove away quickly.. When we got up to shooters position we could see a muddied up creek in the direction the shooter was aiming..A friend and I, along with another couple hunters that came along could easily see where a moose had crossed the road there...Followed where The moose had crossed the creek, and up over the bank to find a very dead cow moose..The other two guys had a cow tag, so they took the moose...There was a single 22 mag bullet in one lung...How we know it was a 22 mag, was where the shooter stood there was a savage 22mag clip/mag laying on the ground with an empty shell near by...

but the .22WMR comment was just too much.

Now the 22 mag is too much?? I wouldn't go quite that far, but it was just enough for these two animals!

 

[rem338win]

I do believe it is called a matter of honor when you call a man a liar. There doesn't seem to be much honor left though. I probably wouldn't pull a gun but you'd sure as hell wished you'd chose your words more carefully if you called me a liar to my face, like I said it's a matter of honor.

And I wouldnt let a person bs me either. And I am happy to let a man have a sporting swing when I call em on it too. Elmer held onto a lot of old wives tales and a good mix of stories. I you read enough of his stuff and dont conclude that then I dont know what to say!

1. Once the velocity drops below approx. 1800 fps, there will be no appreciable expansion of a bullet designed to be fired at 3000 fps+. A .25 calibre bullet that does not expand will NOT be more effective than a .25-20

2. I've found three moose carcasses over the past 20 yrs that have been wounded and lost by other hunters. Poor shooting or poor calibre choice, it doesn't matter much, it's still three too many. If this is such a valuable resource, and we're so worried about the public perception of hunters, why take chances with marginal calibres.

3. You're telling me that a 120 gr 25-06 Nosler partition with an s.d of 260 will out penetrate a .338 210gr Nosler partion with an s.d. of .263 driven at the same velocity? That I would like to see. Maybe you'd like to test the theory out on a brown bear?

4. A 150 gr .270 bullet will outpenetrate a 150 gr. .30-06 bullet of similar construction. Never said it wouldn't.

First off 358's become 38 Specials, 30-06s become 30 carbines etc... Whats your point?

3 moose in 20 years.....do you do a full investigation until you conclude the issue or did you make assumptions.

And a 210 partition has the partition much farther forward than the .257 versions so it is an unfair comparison. But given the results of a few peoples testing I know that a 115gr TSX put of a 25-06 will go as far as a 210gr TSX from a .338. Frontal expansion is much greater and mitigates the mass increase when fired into homogenious materials. Now when shooting through a big bone mass certainly gains advantage. But no one here is saying different.

 

[Ardent]

Ahhh... yes, Internet ballistics debate. I'm trying to avoid it.

.25-06 will kill moose.

 

[borealbushman]

I never could understand the glory of shooting the biggest animal as possible with the smallest caliber as you can get away with.
Get a real gun.What gives??

 

[bjmurata]

I never could understand the glory of shooting the biggest animal as possible with the smallest caliber as you can get away with.
Get a real gun.What gives??

At some point you would think that some common sense would prevail.I agree with your statement 100%.We owe it to the game animals we hunt.

 

[captonion]

Get a real gun.What gives??

I assure you my gun is very real, it may not be a chambering of your choice, but is indeed real...

At some point you would think that some common sense would prevail.I agree with your statement 100%.We owe it to the game animals we hunt.

I owe it to the animal, to wait for the right moment to take the shot..If that moment does not present itself, I let the animal walk...
It's best to know your limitations no matter what you carry, be it bow, rifle, or shotgun...So many do not! Took me some years to ''get this'',but today I consider this my very best tool...

My 25-06 can do this! It's me that has to do the rest, which is the most important factor..

 

[track]

At some point you would think that some common sense would prevail.I agree with your statement 100%.We owe it to the game animals we hunt.

Totally agree with your comment. Common sense is not so commonly used in any disipline. OK smartarse, here is a 22 magnum or a 25-06, come back with a Kodiak bear, Siberian tiger and African lion................ in the meantime I will notify your next of kin. Some internet forum users are just that, blow it out your arse keyboard pounders, they talk the talk but haven't walked the walk.

 

[bearkilr]

If that moment does not present itself, I let the animal walk...

And that right there is the reason only a select few can successfully use marginal calibers.

Those of us who don't want to wait for "the perfect shot" use more appropriate calibers. They also work better on follow up shots when perfect angles are rarely provided, for those of us who aren't "perfect shots".