25 Yard Freestyle Accuracy.....let's play a game.

[plinker 777]

^I would never speak for TDC he does that just fine all on his own, however, what you are describing is referred to as the "now" moment and it is incorrect for bulleye type shooting. By instinct when your sight picture sways and you think I'll shoot "Now", your trigger control takes a hard turn to the left (so to speak). Bullseye shooters practice, practice, practice everything from trigger control to breathing control (similar to rifle shooting). Your sight picture should not sway, your sights should not bob or bounce when depressing the trigger, target re-acquisition could take 30-40 seconds (a long time) after the initial report of the gun.
It's not a knock, and also important to practice (and fun), but the 7m gang dump magazines into targets as quickly and accurately as possible. Not only is there no time for breathing control and accurate sight re-acquisition, as some have said gun sights are almost irrelevant all together. It is by design very instinctive "Go" shooting. point and dump (actually, its training for incapacitating a threat to life and limb quickly and efficiently...but I may get some flack from the "sportsmen" out there for that statement, but I stand by it all the same.)
Anyhow, two completely different ways to wield a hand gun, both are fun, both are challenging and difficult for different reasons...but "now" shooting is not bullseye shooting. It takes a metric tonne of patience and a lot of resting between shots...I don't have the skill or patience for it as my scores indicate, I need to practice more and type less.

 

[jimbo14]

Plinker, thank you very much for your post. I appreciate it.

 

[Halger280HVMag]

That could be a problem when letting-off 5 rounds in 10 seconds!

See here for bullseye shooting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullseye_(shooting_competition)

^I would never speak for TDC he does that just fine all on his own, however, what you are describing is referred to as the "now" moment and it is incorrect for bulleye type shooting. By instinct when your sight picture sways and you think I'll shoot "Now", your trigger control takes a hard turn to the left (so to speak). Bullseye shooters practice, practice, practice everything from trigger control to breathing control (similar to rifle shooting). Your sight picture should not sway, your sights should not bob or bounce when depressing the trigger, target re-acquisition could take 30-40 seconds (a long time) after the initial report of the gun.
It's not a knock, and also important to practice (and fun), but the 7m gang dump magazines into targets as quickly and accurately as possible. Not only is there no time for breathing control and accurate sight re-acquisition, as some have said gun sights are almost irrelevant all together. It is by design very instinctive "Go" shooting. point and dump (actually, its training for incapacitating a threat to life and limb quickly and efficiently...but I may get some flack from the "sportsmen" out there for that statement, but I stand by it all the same.)
Anyhow, two completely different ways to wield a hand gun, both are fun, both are challenging and difficult for different reasons...but "now" shooting is not bullseye shooting. It takes a metric tonne of patience and a lot of resting between shots...I don't have the skill or patience for it as my scores indicate, I need to practice more and type less.

 

[Brutus]

When 30-40 seconds pass during off handed pistol shooting between subsequent shots and without rest, that's way too much time for human muscles to work, and expect anything resembling a reasonable score.

my two bits only plinker 777.......

Edit: Sorry for the misunderstanding plinker!

 

[notsorichguy]

When 30-40 seconds pass during off handed pistol shooting between subsequent shots and without rest, that's way too much time for human muscles to work, and expect anything resembling a reasonable score.

my two bits only plinker 777.......

Who in there right mind would hold up the pistol for 30 seconds between shots? That's like 5 min+ for a mag full......

The purpose of the 30+ second break is to rest the pistol (rest the barrel against the bench arm out-stretched finger off the trigger), or holster the pistol, calm your breathing and focus. See the sight picture in your mind, visualize the shot breaking.

Only when your mind is "right" do you raise the pistol, acquire target and then touch off a round.....

IMHO

 

[Avenida]

For what is worth, here is my take, sorry I did not have the right target and used an idpa target.
I was also aiming at the space (lower portion) in between the 0(down zero) and the -1. More precisely the lower -1.

So, although not very scientific, I was happy with the results considering I don't do any long distance shooting.
shooting from a standing position with no rest/bench. 8 shots with 2 seconds intervals. With 2 shots warm up at the down zero and head respectively, totaling 10. The 2 warm up shots were from 10 yards.
The remainder from 25 yards.


Will do a more scientific test, maybe next week.
Gun used: g17 stock
124gr 5.2 gr cfe pistol rn

 

[TDC]

Thanks. I'll check it out.

Trying to keep this thread on topic and relating this to accurate shooting at longer distances - I'm curious what TDC and other super accurate shooters do to shoot really tight groups. Is your physical conditioning and muscle motor control at the point where you can have a rock solid sight picture at 25 yards, or are you like me where your gun is moving around a bit and you pull the trigger when the sight picture is "about" on target and hope for the best?

I hate to beat a dead horse but it comes down to fundamentals. Apply them consistently and the hits will be there. As far as sight picture goes there are a few pointers. First off, don't obsess about a "perfect" sight picture, it won't happen and you'll second guess yourself until the end of time. Second, the first good sight picture is just as good as the third, fourth or tenth. When you see a good sight picture take the shot, waiting for the perfect/better sight picture will only fatigue your eyes and arms and doesn't work well for competitive shooting where you're constantly fighting the clock. Lastly, have some confidence in your ability. By that I mean don't get wrapped around the axle about the sights, they're there to confirm that your natural hand/eye coordination is tracking properly. Sights are not there to "AIM" the gun, they are a diagnostic tool that indicates where the muzzle is pointed, you are the active device that AIMS the pistol. Put another way, if you play or have played any sports requiring you to direct a ball/puck towards a teammate or goal then you already have the skills to make your eyes and limbs work together as desired. There are no sights on a hockey stick but there's no shortage of goals made by selectively placing that puck in a small undefended void, same goes for shooting(pistols especially as the range is much shorter).

Again, its all fundamentals, so once you've stopped searching for the perfect sight picture and stopped relying solely on the sights to align the pistol, you need to apply proper trigger control. A great sight picture isn't worth a hill of beans if your trigger control is non existent. The single most important aspect of marksmanship is trigger control. Start slow and master the trigger, the speed will follow.

TDC

 

[plinker 777]

Who in there right mind would hold up the pistol for 30 seconds between shots? That's like 5 min+ for a mag full......

The purpose of the 30+ second break is to rest the pistol (rest the barrel against the bench arm out-stretched finger off the trigger), or holster the pistol, calm your breathing and focus. See the sight picture in your mind, visualize the shot breaking.

Only when your mind is "right" do you raise the pistol, acquire target and then touch off a round.....

IMHO

^This...I wasn't suggesting holding the gun outstretched for 30-40 seconds!?{nutz} To the haters, you'll also note that I referred to bullseye type shooting, not competition. I made no mention whatsoever to timed vs rapid fire competitions or scoring. All of my advise is eloquently summed up by Notsorichguy's last sentence. And for a lot of shooters that can take up to 30-40 seconds between "touch offs". Body and mind must rest...Namaste.

*edit on rereading my own post*...I understand the target re-acquisition statement could infer an outstretched pistol...I simply didn't intend the inference.

 

[skookumchuck]

Gave it a try this afternoon and was happy with my results. 87 points no x's. Here's a pic of my best of seven. Managed an 82 with 3 x's on another but only got nine rounds on the paper. Plenty of room for improvement and that's just what I intend to do. I printed out the official target and used it to make my own, but I think the big black target will help my score. Getting all ten on the paper wouldn't hurt either.

 

[GR0M]

Thats three 10s, zero x's skookumchuck. Decent group

 

[Halger280HVMag]

But, but....Bullseye Shooting is a type of official competition. Including timed, and rapid fire.

Unless you are referring to casual shooting at a bullseye type target.

^This...I wasn't suggesting holding the gun outstretched for 30-40 seconds!?{nutz} To the haters, you'll also note that I referred to bullseye type shooting, not competition. I made no mention whatsoever to timed vs rapid fire competitions or scoring. All of my advise is eloquently summed up by Notsorichguy's last sentence. And for a lot of shooters that can take up to 30-40 seconds between "touch offs". Body and mind must rest...Namaste.

*edit on rereading my own post*...I understand the target re-acquisition statement could infer an outstretched pistol...I simply didn't intend the inference.

 

[Coachgun67]

Thanks. I'll check it out.

Trying to keep this thread on topic and relating this to accurate shooting at longer distances - I'm curious what TDC and other super accurate shooters do to shoot really tight groups. Is your physical conditioning and muscle motor control at the point where you can have a rock solid sight picture at 25 yards, or are you like me where your gun is moving around a bit and you pull the trigger when the sight picture is "about" on target and hope for the best?

Plinker put it pretty good already, but guys like Brutus and and WW270 are shooting groups like me or others do with two hands, ONE HANDED. It's a lot easier to keep it steady with two hands.Wich I do/did. The game rules on this treat were outlined as two hands. I would score only half of what i did if i'd be shooting single handed...
The 7 or 15 yard thing is not instictive,but with a mere focus on the front sight...your brain will adjust everything else.Given proper grip and trigger contol ( wich is mandatory,regardles of olympic single handed target or defence style sport both hand shooting).

 

[jimbo14]

Thanks for the clarification, guys.

TDC, thank you for the sight picture pointers and the comment about "Start slow and master the trigger, the speed will follow." I'm still very much a novice there. I do ok at slow fire at a specific target when I rely on a good sight picture, but I definitely need to work on your advanced aiming comments. I get what you're saying and can appreciate the time investment to make that happen. Also noted is your comment about mastering the trigger, since I haven't done that yet. I can work around my deficiencies during slow fire as I used in the posted targets in this thread, but if I was to fire 2 rounds/sec (1and2and3and4and5....) I start driving the gun down and shoot a couple inches low at 10 yards. You know exactly what I'm doing and I need to take steps to correct it.

 

[TDC]

Thanks for the clarification, guys.

TDC, thank you for the sight picture pointers and the comment about "Start slow and master the trigger, the speed will follow." I'm still very much a novice there. I do ok at slow fire at a specific target when I rely on a good sight picture, but I definitely need to work on your advanced aiming comments. I get what you're saying and can appreciate the time investment to make that happen. Also noted is your comment about mastering the trigger, since I haven't done that yet. I can work around my deficiencies during slow fire as I used in the posted targets in this thread, but if I was to fire 2 rounds/sec (1and2and3and4and5....) I start driving the gun down and shoot a couple inches low at 10 yards. You know exactly what I'm doing and I need to take steps to correct it.

Slow down, relax and trust yourself. The sooner you understand that its you that is making the shot(or not) and not the gun, you'll stop hoping for performance and start seeing it, and your mistakes. Its easier said than done, but don't get upset or frustrated. Once you're pissed off you're done for. Relax, and try and learn from every shot, accept that you will have days where you can't focus and your performance will show that. You aren't losing your mind or abilities, its just a bad day.

TDC

 

[plinker 777]

But, but....Bullseye Shooting is a type of official competition. Including timed, and rapid fire.

Unless you are referring to casual shooting at a bullseye type target.

...so is the biathlon, but if you're plinking pine cones while on a cross country ski excursion nobody's keeping score (or timing you) aside from yourself. The word competition implies others are playing too!? (Rivalry) Unless you're bipolar it's tough by yourself.

 

[TDC]

...so is the biathlon, but if you're plinking pine cones while on a cross country ski excursion nobody's keeping score (or timing you) aside from yourself. The word competition implies others are playing too!? (Rivalry) Unless you're bipolar it's tough by yourself.

Priceless!!

TDC

 

[cr5]

Try post #87...

TDC

Not sure how I missed that. Well done.
Now take a few steps back and do it again

 

[Halger280HVMag]

Thank you for making my point!
This is a friendly competition, and indeed scoring figures into it, in an informal way.
Bullseye targets are used by some shooters.
But it ain't Bullseye Shooting.
Besides Bullseye Shooting slow-fire is done one-handed at 50 yards.
Timed and rapid fire are done at 25 yards.

Plinking at pine cones and tin cans is perfectly acceptable as a shooting sport.
In fact it's one of my favourite things to do.

Bullseye.
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/getinto.htm

Slow Fire

The standard 90-shot course of fire begins with 30 shots of slow fire. In the slow-fire stage the target is placed at 50 yards and you're given 10 minutes to fire 10 shots. The targets are scored and repaired after each string of 10 shots.

The slow-fire course gives shooters fits. It places more stress on shooter and gun than the other two courses and is often the deciding factor in a match. At 50 yards the 10-ring-only 3.3 inches in diameter-seems minuscule. Inside of the 3.3-inch 10-ring is a 1.7-inch X-ring used to break ties. The mental fortitude required to concentrate on the sight and trigger squeeze while at the same time holding the gun steady with one hand is substantial. Most shooters worry more about their slow-fire scores than any other part of the match.

Having a gun that can keep 10 shots out of 10 in a three-inch group at 50 yards is necessary too. Conventional wisdom says that your gun and ammunition combination should be able to hold the X-ring at 50 yards from a machine rest. That's a 1.7-inch group, remember. Bull-barreled target .22s manufactured by Smith & Wesson, Ruger, Browning, High Standard, and many of

the European makers are capable of this level of accuracy right out of the box, assuming the shooter has done his homework with respect to ammunition. The 1.7-inch group with the 1911 .45 is much more elusive; it requires the skills of an above-average pistolsmith and solid load development.

Ammunition used for the .22 stage ranges from standard-velocity target fodder to expensive imported match grade stuff. Most shooters find what works in their gun from an accuracy and reliability standpoint and then stick with it, almost to a fault. We've all read time and time again how ammunition, powder, and primers can differ from lot to lot. If you are looking for match accuracy of 1.7 inches at 50 yards, then you must be prepared to test each lot of ammo.

For the .45, most competitors shoot 200-grain cast-lead SWCs purchased from a commercial bulletmaker over Hercules Bullseye powder and a standard Large Pistol primer. While Bullseye is the powder of choice and has been since FDR was President, my personal favorite is Winchester WST. WST possesses all the best attributes of Bullseye, but it burns cleaner. W231, Solo 1000, and HP38 are also used on the bullseye line. The key to match-accurate ammunition is to launch the bullet at 730 to 780 fps. If you don't have access to a chronograph, try 3.6 to 4.3 grains of Bullseye or WST and vary your charges by .1 grain. Odds are you'll hit a good load.

While this isn't intended to be a loading clinic, one final thought is in order: Top shooters weigh their cast bullets, whether homemade or commercially cast. Unseen air bubbles can cause more grief and bad scores at 50 yards than you can imagine. I weigh my slow-fire bullets to .5 grain, but other shooters vary theirs by up to as much as one full grain. The key ingredient is to weed out the really bad bullets that could be two to three grains off the average.

Yes, all this emphasis on accuracy is necessary to score well. The best shooters will "clean" slow-fire targets occasionally, and even an average shooter can see the difference between an 8-ring gun and an X-ring gun. If your gun and ammunition can't hold the X- or 10-ring, you don't have a prayer of ever shooting a perfect slow-fire target. Even if you're not capable of shooting a perfect score, you will still score better with topnotch iron and ammo.

Timed Fire

After the slow-fire course is complete, the targets are moved to 25 yards for timed fire. Then 30 shots are fired in five-shot strings, 10 shots to a target, with 20 seconds allowed for each five- shot string.

Unlike other handgun sports that use a handheld timer, in bullseye each target rotates to and from the shooter to regulate the timing. As the shooters prepare to fire, only the edge of the target is visible. The target rotates to face the shooter when shooting is to begin. The target rotates away when time has expired.

Timed fire is considered the easiest stage of the match. The target is the same one used for slow fire, except only the 9- and 10-rings are black instead of the 8-, 9-, and 10-rings, and it's at half the distance. And 20 seconds to fire five shots is plenty of time. As a friend of mine says, timed fire is sustained slow fire. Top shooters shoot perfect 100's and 99's every time, and even average shooters will clean a timed-fire target on occasion.

Rapid Fire

The third and final stage is rapid fire. It's identical to timed fire: same target at 25 yards with only 10 seconds allowed for each five-shot string. There is nothing like standing on the line with your .45 in hand and shooting alongside 30 or 40 shooters during a rapid-fire string. The noise, the smoke, the adrenaline- you just have to be there to appreciate it. The top shooters shoot 98s, 99s, and perfect 100's every time in rapid fire. But for the beginner the .45 rapid-fire course is the most challenging. A .45 held in one hand-even with light target-load ammunition-is a handful, and a lapse in concentration during rapid fire is readily apparent on the target (or rather all over the target).

Just sayin Eh!

...so is the biathlon, but if you're plinking pine cones while on a cross country ski excursion nobody's keeping score (or timing you) aside from yourself. The word competition implies others are playing too!? (Rivalry) Unless you're bipolar it's tough by yourself.

 

[cr5]

Depends how fast you're going, what you're doing, and to what accuracy standards you're being held.

At 7 yards, a draw from concealment, 2 shots into a 3x5 card, a reload, and 4 shots into an 8" circle is very challenging if you're trying to get under 5 seconds.

50 shots into a 2" circle at 7 yards in under a minute is also tricky...you start to fatigue.

And, of course, as you say, you've never done a one-hole group. Punching a single hole with 10 rounds at 7 yards is a good workout.

I'm going to give it a try when I go shooting this week. I'll put enough rounds in that it's a 6 inch one hole group

 

[Clobbersauras]

Gave it a try this afternoon and was happy with my results. 87 points no x's. Here's a pic of my best of seven. Managed an 82 with 3 x's on another but only got nine rounds on the paper. Plenty of room for improvement and that's just what I intend to do. I printed out the official target and used it to make my own, but I think the big black target will help my score. Getting all ten on the paper wouldn't hurt either.

The standard target will definitely help, as long as your front sight doesn't cover it completely. I print one off at home and then go to a copy store. 8 cents a copy is acceptable to me.

Keep it up and you'll be breaking 90 soon.