stubblejumper said:
SJ, my experience is that it is about 50/50, sometimes higher sometimes lower.
I am not speaking about loads that someone has cooked up in their head, but using the exact load published in the manual.
Ted
.257 weatherby mag
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SJ, my experience is that it is about 50/50, sometimes higher sometimes lower.
I am not speaking about loads that someone has cooked up in their head, but using the exact load published in the manual.
Ted
stubblejumper said:So the highest velocity that you are posting for your rifle with a 120gr bullet is 3267fps?That is a long ways from the velocity that Barnes is quoting.And it is about 160fps more than my friends 25-06 produces with the 120gr partition.Again that is very close to 150fps difference.
The Noslers are 120 gr Partitions and the Barnes are 100gr XLC.... that is why there is a big velocity difference.
If you have a Nosler manual in front of you, 5th Edition take a look at it. DID I STATE THE ONES I CHRONOGRAPHED WHERE MAX LOADS. NO.... I stated I loaded up to 67 grs of IMR7828, which is a medium load, which the manual states 3312 and I got 3267. Add another 2 grains of IMR 7828 , 69 grains of powder, which becomes the max load, then it goes up to 3402, that is another 100fps over the load I tested. I haven't tested that load, but the data is still there. The others were accurate, so I am assuming that would be also.
As for the Barnes data I quoted the Barnes XLC moly coated bullet for both rifles. They can be loaded with more powder than the standard x bullets and have a higher velocity.
100 grs XLC
25-06 3424fps 24" barrel (those numbers don't make the 25-06 no slouch either)
257 3756fps 24" barrel
I have not personally chronograph these. 15grs of extra powder is a lot, where do you think its going and it shows up both on the chrono and recoil, there are no free lunches. But the difference in recoil is not that drastic between the two. The 257 kicks around a 270 Win. Again you don't have to load to max, just because its a magnum, doesn't mean you have to load it at maximum pressures. 3100 to 3200fps is more than enough for whitetails, if you want to take the occasion ElK, then load it up. Give your brass and barrel more life, buts its there if you need it.
Believe it if you want to , all the data is there, you make your own decision if its false for one and not the other. If the data for the 257 is full of crap, then the 25-06 data has to be equally distorted
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My experience has shown that for every load that exceeds the book velocities,at least three will not meet them.Of the rifles that have consistantly exceeded book velocities with most loads,most have been
custom rifles with minimum spec chambers.Most factory rifles fail to reach book velocities.Of course this is easily explained by the fact that most manuals use custom barrels with chambers cut to minimum specs.The larger chambers on most factory rifles result in lower pressures and therefore lower velocities.
stubblejumper said:
Have you chronographed these loads from the Barnes manual in either 25-06 or 257 to tell me they are fictitious???? So the reloading manuals that you use, are based on theory and not facts? Since these rounds were tested in barrels and chronographed, that is a fact. Whether you produce there exact fps, is another thing. That goes equally for both calibers.
Buddy you can live in whatever world you want, you haven't shown me any data to contradict what is published in the manuals. I never said every load will meet the specified fps in the manual. I stated the difference between 25-06 and 257, you keep arguing the difference is wrong...... you say that the 25-06 velocities listed can be reproduced, but the 257 wby velocities cannot be reproduced?
Show me something that states the 25-06 loads are accurate and the 257 loads are wrong.
I don't exceed the recommended loads in the manuals. You can create any load you wish.... I have fired max loads from the Weatherby, but I did not chrono them, did not have the chrono back then. They were not the most accurate in my rifle, so I did not reload them. However there were no issues with pressure, primers issues etc. I put a box of Weatherby 120 Noslers, factory loaded ammo thru it, that is about as hot as you can get the round. So yes, the max loads I fired were safe.
I will take the (theory) data published in the manuals as my guideline, over the facts that you have not provided. AGAIN, I will ask what makes you think the Data provided for the 25-06 is correct but the 257 is not....
What makes you think a max load in a 25-06 is safe but one in a 257 is not....
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It is a fact that these velocities were measured in one specific rifle.Unless you bought that specific rifle from the people printing the manual,quoting the manual velocities as representative of the specific load in your rifle is quoting theory.If you are quoting actual velocity numbers chronographed in your rifle,you are talking fact.It is also fact that some companies producing manuals do not list the pressures produced with all loads.As such it is theory to assume that all companies are loading all cartridges to SAAMI design pressures.
Exactly my point.that is true for all cartridges.That is why I don't put much faith in any velocities printed in loading manuals.
stubblejumper said:
FACT: LOADS ARE TESTED AND SHOT FROM THE TEST BARREL. They produced those velocities. That makes it a fact. Whether you can reproduced this in your rifle INCLUDING YOUR 25-06 is another thing.
FACT: I already gave you the facts of what my rifle did according to the manual and chrono, 40fps less than stated, most like due to the shorter barrel. That makes it a fact, not a theory. Still puts 200-300 fps between the two cartridges. I shot a medium load and was about 150fps higher than your friends 25-06. Do you think there will be no more added fps with 2 more grains of IMR 7828. By the manual you are gaining around 50fps for each 1 gr of powder. So that will put it up somewhere around 250fps more than the 25-06.... give or take a few.
FACT: Looked at the Hodgdon Reloading manual. Max pressure load for a 25-06 is 51,900 and the max load listed for the 257 is 52,700.... So is the 257 producing that much extra pressure no....
FACT: From IMR website, 120 nosler max load, IMR 7828 as I mentioned before equals 53,000 pressure
120 Sierras 25-06, max load = 52,800 pressure. So why is it safer.
FACt: The Vanguard is produced in numerous calibers including the 300 WSM, who max load pressure is 64,300.... so overall I would consider them a strong action.
Don't care what the velocity stated in the manuals, I keep talking about the difference of the two cartridges, as the title of the post is asking about the two cartridges.
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FACT:the highest velocity chronographed with your rifle was 3267fps.period.
THEORY,Since you have not personally chronographed a 25-06 with the same bullet,you have not proven that a fact.
FACT.On the other hand I have chronographed both.
FACT You provided data without specifying units,some in CUP and some in PSI.Obviously you do not know the diffrence between the two.
FACT The pressures listed in the Hodgdons manual are measured pressures not SAAMI design pressures.If you don't know what SAAMI design pressures are,try this link.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm
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stubblejumper said:
Of course that means that the rifles that have larger chambers can then be loaded to higher pressures and consequently higher velocities.
The Bevan King Savage getting 3700+ fps with 100 gr partitions is a custom chamber and has been shooting these loads for more than 20 years.
Ted
stubblejumper said:
How about 120 grs shooting the same your 100grs..... Medium load vs your max. Have you been asleep during this conversation. You just kept on about really world comparisons, but you fail to recognize the data in front of you. I am comparing the data you provided against the data I provided. As you stated its a FACT. Its a real comparison.
stubblejumper said:
Of course that means that the rifles that have larger chambers can then be loaded to higher pressures and consequently higher velocities.
The Bevan King Savage getting 3700+ fps with 100 gr partitions is not theory. It is chronographed over an Oehler Model 33.
It is a custom chamber and has been shooting these loads for more than 20 years.
Ted
Quote By the way its CUP and PSI for the WSM, there is still no difference between the two pressures for the 25-06 and 257 in the loaded rounds.... the 25-06 is no safer than the 257. But what would I know... You seem to have all the answers.[/QUOTE]
No, read my post Quote "and its PSI for the WSM"....... Nice try Stubblejumper in deleting half of the quote out to change the wording.
Man you can sure bring up your post count quick, like this.
Anyways enough garbage, you can have the last say.....
No, read my post Quote "and its PSI for the WSM"....... Nice try Stubblejumper in deleting half of the quote out to change the wording.
Man you can sure bring up your post count quick, like this.
Anyways enough garbage, you can have the last say.....
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Reguardless of the chamber dimensions,the saami design pressure is the same.If you have an oversized chamber,you can add a slight amount of powder to attain the same pressure,but any gains in velocity are insignificant.Unless of course you cut the chamber to an improved chambering which is considered an entirely different cartridge.However custom barrel and rifle makers tend to cut their chamber dimensions near the minimum to improve accuracy and brass life.
Some people agree with me,that in some cases the book velocities are close,some low,but most on the high side,some by quite a bit.
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=98882
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=980412&an=0&page=0&gonew=1#UNREAD
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2511043/m/724106035
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