30-06 vs 308 ballistics and energy
- Thread starter krchov
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Really? You ever played with Varget or Reloader 15? I've owned 5 or 6 308's with 22 inch barrels, and just using published load data could meet or exceed 2800FPS with a 165 grain bullet in all of them, according to my chronograph's (yes, plural, I shot the first one by accident, DOH!). Further, 150 grain bullets have also gone about 2950-ish FPS with a book load of Varget or R15 in all of my 308's.
Heck, the hunting load I'm using in The Wife(tm)'s 308 right now is a 168 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip and 44 grains of Varget (2 grains below the book's listed max of 46), and that gets me a muzzle velocity of 2720-ishFPS out of the 22.4-ish inch Tikka T3 barrel. I haven't tried in this particular gun, but I have no doubt, based on past experience, that the full 46 grains would knock that right up near (or over) the 2800FPS mark.
Either Varget or R15 will also produce beautifuly small standard deviations in velocity.
SMK? Do you mean Sierra Match Kings? For moose? That is the second time I have heard that suggestion. The other time being Noel from WSS. I am sure that it would work, and moose have been killed with less, but I thought Sierra did not recomend their match bullet for game?
those numbers like what wade is getting is like what i get using 180 grain pills and a 20 inch barrel- 2620- 2645 at 3500 ft altitudeReally? You ever played with Varget or Reloader 15? I've owned 5 or 6 308's with 22 inch barrels, and just using published load data could meet or exceed 2800FPS with a 165 grain bullet in all of them, according to my chronograph's (yes, plural, I shot the first one by accident, DOH!). Further, 150 grain bullets have also gone about 2950-ish FPS with a book load of Varget or R15 in all of my 308's.
Heck, the hunting load I'm using in The Wife(tm)'s 308 right now is a 168 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip and 44 grains of Varget (2 grains below the book's listed max of 46), and that gets me a muzzle velocity of 2720-ishFPS out of the 22.4-ish inch Tikka T3 barrel. I haven't tried in this particular gun, but I have no doubt, based on past experience, that the full 46 grains would knock that right up near (or over) the 2800FPS mark.
Either Varget or R15 will also produce beautifuly small standard deviations in velocity.
Yep - it does not mean it is enough gun - Cree native shoot moose and cariboo with .223 - it does not mean it is enough gun. - they just keep shooting until they go down - seen it.
Your moose must be smaller out there
and yours must be "seperate and distinct"
Not enough gun.
So a 165gr bullet at 2850fps ('06) will do exactly what, that a 165gr bullet at 2750fps (.308) won't?
I don't know how anyone killed moose before they had SuperDuperUltra Magnums.
Get your number right : The .308 will get that 165 grain at 2800 ( max speed I found in the Sierra reloading manual ) - for 2875 foot pound of energy - the same bullet in the 30-06 will get it at 2900 + for close to 3100 foot pounds of energy. Yes you can kill a bear or a moose with bow and arrow. I guided in an outfitting business for years and chased wounded moose and bear more than once because of the not so perfect shot with not enough gun.
Hold your .308 round in one hand and a 30-06 round in the other - The 30-06 can hold almost ( depending on powder used ) close to 10 grains more powder. Hit in the vital close enough with the .308- it will go down . But when condition are not so perfect and you need penetration -- you want power. I like the .308 round but I take the 30-06 any day over it to hunt bear and moose. I stand behind what I wrote : the 30-06 is a better hunting round - period.
Yep - it does not mean it is enough gun - Cree native shoot moose and cariboo with .223 - it does not mean it is enough gun. - they just keep shooting until they go down - seen it.
Your moose must be smaller out there
4 shots.......3 moose............not what I'd call "spraying the brush with lead".I think they call it SHOT PLACEMENT & not overshooting the gun you are using or overshooting your own skill level.
I doesn't matter if you're using a .460 Weatherby Magnum if your bullet hits the stump beside the moose.
The moose were shot between 100 & 110 yards (paced it off).
There was no way in this world that I was carrying either of those 10 pound (fully dressed out with Bushnell 4200 (2.5 - 10x) scopes) magnum rifles with "alder friendly" 24 in. barrels on a 8 mile walk in tag alder & cedar swamp country too dirty to take a quad through.
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10 grains of slower powder. With the same powder, only 5-6 grains diff. Energy is not the end-all of ballistics, and if a .308 cannot get the job done, then you will need more than the '06 can offer.
A poor shot with a mag, is still a poor shot. More speed won't help. Period.
If I follow your theory, then there is no need for any other .308 caliber since they all make hole the same size - the .308 Win is all it is needed. You need velocity to get penetration before you can get to the other side. A heavier bullet - faster will get you there. There is also the very heavy slow bullet ( 45-70 as example ) in the other camp. You need penetration - FTS - Pounds of energy to get you there. And in this department - the 06 has more.
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10 grains of slower powder. With the same powder, only 5-6 grains diff. Energy is not the end-all of ballistics, and if a .308 cannot get the job done, then you will need more than the '06 can offer.
A poor shot with a mag, is still a poor shot. More speed won't help. Period.
Yep - I agree about that -
We are just talking about wich one is better .308/06 - and the 06 has a small edge
To go after a wounded bear - well - more is always better You want your bullet to go to the vital and it must be pushed there - and it take energy to do so. If not - we will all be hunting big game with .22 LR 40 grain bullet
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Yep - we are just talking about wich one is better .308/06 - and the 06 has a small edge
Sure, its slightly faster. I just don't see where 7% more energy or 4% more speed, will make a spit of difference...
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Its all kind of interesting, when we compare cartridges, usually the cartridge with the larger powder volume has the advantage when both rounds are compared in rifles with similar barrel lengths. In fact, small increases in powder capacity like when we change the shape from a tapered case to a straight AI case, that alone will often increase the velocity potential.
When we compare factory ammo things are a little different. The .30/06 is loaded to 48,000 psi while the .308 is loaded to 52,000. Those of us who reload for modern rifles pretty much disregard the 48,000 psi limit, and we work up our .30/06 loads the same as we do for any other cartridge. The factory doesn't know what the ammo will be used in, so they can't. So while a 150 gr bullet will have the same velocity from both the .308 and the .30/06 in factory ammo, the handloader should be able to squeeze a bit more out of the '06, if he feels he must.
When we compare factory ammo things are a little different. The .30/06 is loaded to 48,000 psi while the .308 is loaded to 52,000. Those of us who reload for modern rifles pretty much disregard the 48,000 psi limit, and we work up our .30/06 loads the same as we do for any other cartridge. The factory doesn't know what the ammo will be used in, so they can't. So while a 150 gr bullet will have the same velocity from both the .308 and the .30/06 in factory ammo, the handloader should be able to squeeze a bit more out of the '06, if he feels he must.
well i've got a load in my manual( speer) for 308 that gives a blistering 3011 fps for 54 grains of h380- 168 grain match bullet- granted , my manual is a little older than yours -probably, BUT IT'S THE SAME POWDER CHARGE- THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS THE CASE- and we all know how much the various reloading manuals play with the numbers- incidentally, the 06 with the SAME LOAD is 2845
Jeez this thread belongs in a 1958 Gun Magazine. I suspect there have been more mose shot with the .303 British in Canada then any other caliber, period.
Not sure how it does it with all these foot pounds flying around but it does and has.
Take Care
Bob
Not sure how it does it with all these foot pounds flying around but it does and has.
Take Care
Bob
Isn't amazing how fast we go from "nobody would take a 308 hunting" (but the 06 is apparently plenty big enough) to noting that "the 06 has a small edge" (very small indeed, truth be told).
You are so funny. I will take you along anytime with your 150 grain stuffed .308 to chase a wounded bear. I stand behind the 30-06 with 220 grain bullet and laugh hard..you will have time to think about bullet penetration then..
The .308 is at the end of it rope before the 30-06. You like it or not - this is fact. Many cartridge were improved by 6-7 % such at the Ackley and yes they did make a difference on game. Flatter trajectory - heavier bullet pushed faster for more killing power is the name of the game.
You can go shoot moose with a 30-30 - this is not mean it is smart and have enough power. I can count on 1 finger of one hand -the hunters showing up at the outfitting business with a .308 for a moose hunt in the last 20 years. It is an excellent deer or even black beer cartridge and this is were it should stop being used for. If some of you hunt moose with it and have the skill and good sense to use the .308 Win up close in dense wood and are good shot.. well good !! we are lucky they are all CGN member !!!
You sure may be right. I would suspect that the .303 has taken it's fair share of big critters in the rest of the world as well. Africa comes to mind.
I can read your fact with my own eyes. Most moose can not read this and therefore to them it is not fact!
WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! That is not the name of the game! There is no game! Shoot a good bullet through the vitals of a moose and he/she will die, soon. Now that is fact, unless the moose was born on the Planet Krypton under a red sun
