.30 cal vs. 7mm

The best piece of opinion of long range cartridge was something like:
  • 270 Win - large game effective at 200 yards
  • 7 Rem Mag - large game effective at 275 yards
  • 300 Win Mag - large game effective at 350 yards
  • 338 Lapua Mag - large game effective at 425+ yards
What the author considered effective was a quick kill with a any solid hit (2000+ ft-lbs of energy).
The only problem with powerful cartridges is that recoil is pretty much proportional to effective range.
If you want to double the effective range, you basically need to double the recoil :(

Alex
 
It would seem that author never shot much game at LR....

The best thing I have seen in educating hunters is bullet makers putting pics of bullets at different impact velocities in their catalogs

What you quickly see is that ALL go through the same expansion characteristics but at vastly different velocities. Some will expand at 2800fps the same way another will at 2000fps. And from what I have seen on game, expansion with adequate penetration is what kills animals. If the bullet does the same thing internally, really doesn't matter how or what you used to get it to the rib cage.

I now favor lower muzzle velocities and "soft" bullets. I end up with the same on game effect AND way less meat bruising. Up side is I never have to worry about a bullet blowing up on impact. For longer shots, I know how to dial and/or use my scope reticle so that is moot.

Ironically, huge effort, recoil and costs usually don't extend the same bullet impact more then 100 to 200yds. And that is usually many hundred yards further then the vast majority will ever engage game.

The emphasis on cartridge numbers has sold alot of product over the year and created quite a few problems (which of course need new solutions). Give those catalogs a study and you might find that there are wonderful options today that will do pretty much anything on this continent with standard "small" chamberings.

Jerry
 
30% less recoil? I don't think do. A 160 grain bullet at 3000 fps from a 7mm Rem Mag generates about 3300 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle, a 180 gr bullet from a 300 Win mag at the same velocity is a bit over 3500 foot pounds. Both rifles typically weigh similar mounts, the 300 has a bit more powder, at most 10 to 15% more recoil.

Fudge the numbers a little harder next time pls
 
The best piece of opinion of long range cartridge was something like:
  • 270 Win - large game effective at 200 yards
  • 7 Rem Mag - large game effective at 275 yards
  • 300 Win Mag - large game effective at 350 yards
  • 338 Lapua Mag - large game effective at 425+ yards
What the author considered effective was a quick kill with a any solid hit (2000+ ft-lbs of energy).
The only problem with powerful cartridges is that recoil is pretty much proportional to effective range.
If you want to double the effective range, you basically need to double the recoil :(

Alex

Oddly, my .338 Edge (poorman's Lapua) takes 2000 foot-pounds to 1100 yards. My favorite .300 Win load takes 2000 to 550 or there-abouts. Don't spend much time with the 7 Mag anymore, but my STWs will take the ton to 500. I'd be curious to see where his numbers came from.
 
A 300 Win mag good to 350, but a 7mm Rem Mag only good to 275?!? A 270 is only good to 200??? What author was this, so I know never to actually PAY to read his stuff...lol I wonder what this guy thinks a 7x57 is good for, or a 30-30!!
 
One clarification: effective range numbers were "ideal" elk energy (2000 ft-lb) for a standard large game hunting load in 24" barrel.
That might seem like a huge number but it's about the muzzle energy of a 243 Win.
 
Kinda playin with small game cartridges there, I think the OP want to harvest not hurt animals.

:D

From a member of another forum:

Elk, .260, 130VLD, one shot.
6X6011.jpg


One 130VLD
mdbuck2011041.jpg


.260, 130SS, one shot.
Alaska080.jpg


.260, 130VLD, one shot from 488 meters
gfbear013_zps8deaf53b.jpg


There are more, but I'll stop there ;) Seems like the .260 and 7-08 are dinosaur killers?
 
One clarification: effective range numbers were "ideal" elk energy (2000 ft-lb) for a standard large game hunting load in 24" barrel.
That might seem like a huge number but it's about the muzzle energy of a 243 Win.

So a .243 with 85gr TSX or a .30-30 wouldn't be considered ideal, even if the muzzle was pushed up against an elk's ribcage and fired point blank?

"Ideal energy" is a myth.

Mystic Precision (Jerry) nailed it.
 
There is a group of effective calibers that are favored in North America, and all the above mentioned are in it. To make comparisons between 7mm and 30 cal is doing a lot of splitting hairs. Good hunting shots are a combination of velocity, energy, projectile construction, skill, and often luck. The other question would be what is its intended purpose? A caliber for hunting on the open prairies would be different pick for what i use in the heavy bush. I have most of the calibers mentioned above and have been hunting for 35 years, If i had to pick one, I would keep my 30.06. It does everything I've ever needed a rifle to do. Animals just seem to fall over from just pointing it at them.

Another pastime akin to splitting hairs was the ancient Greeks trying to decide how many spirits could dance on the head of a pin.Come to think of it I believe the first time I read a reference to this was in one of the first copies of Cartridges of the World I bought many years ago now.The topic was the same thing basically,a comparison between two cartridges that for all intents and purposes were essentially the same performance wise.As with virtually all of these discussions about calibers,killing power and on and on,much depends on opinions.Does everybody agree on these discussions,of course not but that is what makes things interesting around here.
 
This should be a doosie!

I wouldn't hesitate to hunt with the 7mm-08 except that the 7x57 is far cooler. I wouldn't say that when comparing the 7mm-08 to the 308 or 280 to 30-06 that one outdistances the other. In fact, if I had both I'd let you choose which you wanted to hunt with and I'd use the other one.
 
Okay, I'm sure this has been done to death so if anyone has a link that they can share where this has been sorted I'd love to see it. Having said that, I recently had a number of very long conversations with a friend who says that all North American big game can be hunted with calibers that I would never before considered. What I found to be interesting was that he said the sectional density of the 7mm (.284) is so superior to the .308 calibers out there that there is no reason to go with that venerable cal. Does this make sense? He says that 7mm penetrates better, has superior ballistic coefficient and penetration. I have always been of the mind that the bigger the bullet diameter, the bigger the whole=better, quicker, more humane kill. He's telling me that a 7mm-08 is capable of taking down elk and moose. I am very open to getting into a caliber that doesn't kick like a moose if I don't need to...so any thoughts? And, like I said, if this exact post already exists I'm happy to read it (my search results were less than fruitful)
I think your friend spends too much time reading charts and tables. I also doubt very much you'd see any practical difference at all between the 7/08 and 308 in real world hunting. Both are excellent chamberings.
 
It would seem that author never shot much game at LR....

The best thing I have seen in educating hunters is bullet makers putting pics of bullets at different impact velocities in their catalogs

What you quickly see is that ALL go through the same expansion characteristics but at vastly different velocities. Some will expand at 2800fps the same way another will at 2000fps. And from what I have seen on game, expansion with adequate penetration is what kills animals. If the bullet does the same thing internally, really doesn't matter how or what you used to get it to the rib cage.

I now favor lower muzzle velocities and "soft" bullets. I end up with the same on game effect AND way less meat bruising. Up side is I never have to worry about a bullet blowing up on impact. For longer shots, I know how to dial and/or use my scope reticle so that is moot.

Ironically, huge effort, recoil and costs usually don't extend the same bullet impact more then 100 to 200yds. And that is usually many hundred yards further then the vast majority will ever engage game.

The emphasis on cartridge numbers has sold alot of product over the year and created quite a few problems (which of course need new solutions). Give those catalogs a study and you might find that there are wonderful options today that will do pretty much anything on this continent with standard "small" chamberings.

Jerry

These are exactly the sentiments I posted a while ago in another thread. IMO the impact of a 30 cal, 180 grain bullet on big game around 2000 fps or around 3000 fps has never made any difference whatsoever to how effectively those bullets have killed said game. As long as the bullet arrives fast enough to deform properly and penetrate enough to destroy vital organs it has done it's job, and blowing out the other side and continuing way onwards adds nothing at all to the lethality of the wound. I laymans terms, at "normal" hunting ranges out to about 300 yards, no animal I've ever seen shot reacted any diffrenently to a hot handloaded 300 win mag than to a factory loaded 303 British.

And I say this as a bit of a long time magnum nut, who spent way too much time chasing velocity and energy levels, like the gun companies and the wildlife authorities flog at us.

AlexF's post is a great example of the pure silliness that many of us have unwittingly bought into, by listening to so many supposed "experts", some of whom are actually in positions of authority in govermnent making hunting policy. 270 effective to 200 yards and 338 lapua to 425+? Pure garbage, period.

Just like the energy charts that show that a 30-06 is only marginally effective on moose to something like 200 yards and a 30-30 apparently can't kill moose at all. I guess everyone had been doing it wrong for 100+ years, before these armchair experts arrived.

If someone wants to look at effective killing range of cartridge, then look at all the long range hunting videos around. Forget about the likelihood of misses for a minute (That's not what we are talking about.), and concentrate only on the effect on game of well placed shots, since that's the issue here. Suddenly you'll see deer, elk, moose and even big bears being flattended by non-magnums out to 1,000 yards or more, and magnums, (...like the 425 yard 338 lapua...) having virtually unlimited effective range. You'll also not see very many 338 lapua's being used either, btw.

So is a 7mm or a 30 cal better, well, that argument will last forever.

But for gosh sake, lets get rid of this "200 yards for a .270" stuff, along with the "you need 2000 ft/lbs impact energy to kill a moose" garbage, for those statements are simple "black and white", provable or disprovable, statements, and they have wholeheartedly been disproven even before they were ever flogged to the unsuspecting public.
 
:D

From a member of another forum:

Elk, .260, 130VLD, one shot.
6X6011.jpg


One 130VLD
mdbuck2011041.jpg


.260, 130SS, one shot.
Alaska080.jpg


.260, 130VLD, one shot from 488 meters
gfbear013_zps8deaf53b.jpg


There are more, but I'll stop there ;) Seems like the .260 and 7-08 are dinosaur killers?

so, I guess we had better let the 260 in the door then for sure! She's been a bash'n and a knock'n for a while now!
 
This should be a doosie!

I wouldn't hesitate to hunt with the 7mm-08 except that the 7x57 is far cooler. I wouldn't say that when comparing the 7mm-08 to the 308 or 280 to 30-06 that one outdistances the other. In fact, if I had both I'd let you choose which you wanted to hunt with and I'd use the other one.

Well ok BUM, I'd do a ride along with you in the C-mobile in the far frozen North on ice/snow (edit: thick ice) with a short action, so 7mm-08 or 308 it is, got power windows in the cruiser???
 
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