300 Blackout - Brass Forming
- Thread starter Brobee
- Start date
na1lb0hm - I am using the 300-221/blackout full length resizing die made by Redding.
Suputin - I appreciate the offer! I should be good...I have a little mill in my garage for small jobs and my shooting buddy runs an oilfield tool making machine shop with pretty much every machine you could imagine. My next project is likely going to be to make a proper die to use the Dillon 1200, but it can wait until after my barrel gets here....
...I've already got more brass than I can shoot...
Cheers,
Brobee
Suputin - I appreciate the offer! I should be good...I have a little mill in my garage for small jobs and my shooting buddy runs an oilfield tool making machine shop with pretty much every machine you could imagine. My next project is likely going to be to make a proper die to use the Dillon 1200, but it can wait until after my barrel gets here....
...I've already got more brass than I can shoot...Cheers,
Brobee
I am in the deep SE corner of the city. If you want to try to make yourself some money, figure out a way to make 300 BLK brass quickly and cheaply and you will have loads of guys willing to pay you to trim it for them.
It doesn't seem to matter what dies you use. I have an original SSK 300 Whisper die set and it works just fine for the Blackout chamber'd guns.
- Location
- Fort St John BC
excellent thread ive been interested in venturing into 300 blackout these videos will come in handy when the time comes
thanks guys
thanks guys
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Great video and picked up new ideas.
Anyone anneal the necks after forming?
Jerry
Anyone anneal the necks after forming?
Jerry
The quickest way is with a pinch-trim die. If you have a lathe, it is very simple to make one.
I have but there doesn't seem to be a need to. The size down from the 223 body to the 300 neck is pretty minor.
Funny you would ask that, as after reading about a couple of folks experiencing accuracy enhancement with 300blk after annealing their case mouths, I spent the evening yesterday doing just that. I shot some video and will post it once I have a chance to sit down and process it.
Cheers,
Brobee
Would you be able to make one that works with the 650?
The beauty of using a 650 is the case feeder and couple extra stations that you can use to size and decap.
I roll the cases on a lube pad then toss them in the feeder.
Then for every pull of the handle I get a sized, trimmed and decapped case. Sizing on the last station even swages most of the burr off the case mouth.
A pinch trim die would avoid brass shavings the getting all over place which would be a plus. Not sure how to deal with the bottle neck parent 223 case. But I am only a hobby machinest. ;^). Would you expand the neck to 30 cal on a prev step to make room for the mandrel?
Right now I got things pretty much as fast as I need them to be. A 1050 setup would be nice as it would take care of any primer crimp.
GC
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While waiting on my barrel I've been reading around the net for folks different experiences with their 300 Blackout guns, specifically their supersonic load data as well as their brass preparation. One of the things I noticed was some folks reporting only 3 to 5 firings on their re-sized cases before they experienced neck cracking....YIKES!...I put way too much work into parting off all those cases so I got to trying to learn a bit about annealing.
Then reading about how some folks were reporting marked accuracy improvements in their blackout loads when using annealed cases, I was sold. I will add annealed cases into the testing bucket for my blackout project!
I tried a couple of different vendors in the States vis a vis purchasing one of those fancy new somewhat automatic annealing setups, but ARRR the dreaded ITAR pirate has me foiled as the folks I tried would not ship to Canada.
On to Plan B - using my little taig lathe to rotate the case as I hit it by hand with the propane torch:
[youtube]C0kwTTB6Uwc[/youtube]
Some miscellaneous notes that may or may not have made it into the video (I did not film a long enough segment to fit everything in...d'oh!):
- The aluminum jaws on my chuck are awesome. They act as a great heat sink and prevent the base of the case from getting hot.
- Despite being only hand tight, the chuck does a decent job of holding the case and makes for relatively speedy brass changes.
- I hold the torch so that the propane flame pencil tip just touches the middle of the case mouth.
- 8 seconds is what I targeted for time. Next batch I will use a metronome to keep better track of time.
- My goal was to get the case mouth just below the point where it would glow in a darkened room. This would leave a visible copper colored ring about a centimeter back from the shoulder of the case. Perhaps a bit too far back as it softened up the body of the case just aft of the shoulder...we'll see if there are any extraction problems once the rifle is built. If so I will need to go a little less.
- The orange flame (sometimes) visible in the video is the cutting fluid (used when parting the) old .223 case mouths off) burning off. I heated the case just enough that the cutting fluid can form a bit of black carbon on the case mouth. I will find a way to clean this off before loading.
- The brass will go through a sizing die twice more before it's first firing...once right after the annealing step in order to properly form the inside of the new case neck, and then once more right before loading (after I've chamfered the case mount inside & out, de-burred the flash hole, and then washed/tumbled the brass to get rid of the lub/carbon marks)
- After the 8 seconds of torch time, I give the brass a blast of compressed air. This does a great job of cooling the case off quickly...and cool enough that I can handle the case no problems without gloves. Gives me lots of confidence that the base of the case has seen no annealing at all.
- The lathe does an awesome job of evenly heating the case mouth...it made me wonder if the other more mechanized machines folks are using down south do as good a job. They would be about 3 times faster than me though...*sigh*. Oh well...I enjoy the work and it gives me time to think.
Hopefully my barrels will arrive sometime in the next month or two - I'm hoping to do a video of the rifle build as well as a couple of it getting wrung out and then off deer hunting this coming fall!
Cheers, and thanks for all the great ideas!
Brobee
Then reading about how some folks were reporting marked accuracy improvements in their blackout loads when using annealed cases, I was sold. I will add annealed cases into the testing bucket for my blackout project!
I tried a couple of different vendors in the States vis a vis purchasing one of those fancy new somewhat automatic annealing setups, but ARRR the dreaded ITAR pirate has me foiled as the folks I tried would not ship to Canada.
On to Plan B - using my little taig lathe to rotate the case as I hit it by hand with the propane torch:
[youtube]C0kwTTB6Uwc[/youtube]
Some miscellaneous notes that may or may not have made it into the video (I did not film a long enough segment to fit everything in...d'oh!):
- The aluminum jaws on my chuck are awesome. They act as a great heat sink and prevent the base of the case from getting hot.
- Despite being only hand tight, the chuck does a decent job of holding the case and makes for relatively speedy brass changes.
- I hold the torch so that the propane flame pencil tip just touches the middle of the case mouth.
- 8 seconds is what I targeted for time. Next batch I will use a metronome to keep better track of time.
- My goal was to get the case mouth just below the point where it would glow in a darkened room. This would leave a visible copper colored ring about a centimeter back from the shoulder of the case. Perhaps a bit too far back as it softened up the body of the case just aft of the shoulder...we'll see if there are any extraction problems once the rifle is built. If so I will need to go a little less.
- The orange flame (sometimes) visible in the video is the cutting fluid (used when parting the) old .223 case mouths off) burning off. I heated the case just enough that the cutting fluid can form a bit of black carbon on the case mouth. I will find a way to clean this off before loading.
- The brass will go through a sizing die twice more before it's first firing...once right after the annealing step in order to properly form the inside of the new case neck, and then once more right before loading (after I've chamfered the case mount inside & out, de-burred the flash hole, and then washed/tumbled the brass to get rid of the lub/carbon marks)
- After the 8 seconds of torch time, I give the brass a blast of compressed air. This does a great job of cooling the case off quickly...and cool enough that I can handle the case no problems without gloves. Gives me lots of confidence that the base of the case has seen no annealing at all.
- The lathe does an awesome job of evenly heating the case mouth...it made me wonder if the other more mechanized machines folks are using down south do as good a job. They would be about 3 times faster than me though...*sigh*. Oh well...I enjoy the work and it gives me time to think.
Hopefully my barrels will arrive sometime in the next month or two - I'm hoping to do a video of the rifle build as well as a couple of it getting wrung out and then off deer hunting this coming fall!
Cheers, and thanks for all the great ideas!
Brobee
Yes, it would work like a Redding seater die, with the case being cut on the top edge of the sleeve. All that a pinch-trim die does is push the case body against a sharp edge. The material the sleeve (cutting edge) and the punch are made from just need to be harder than the material being trimmed. This is what a pinch-trim dies fro trimming jackets looks like:
The case would need to be inserted in into the sleeve by the bottom (sleeve serves the same function as that knurled part in the pic). The sleeve would slide up into the body of the die as the ram raises, pushing the case into a stationary cone-shaped punch. At the top of the stroke, the punch would score the case body on the edge of the sleeve. When the ram was lowered, the case material would be pull off of the punch and then torn off when the case was pulled out of the sleeve. The resulting edge would be a bit rough, but easily cleaned up with a trimmer, or peened smooth by tumbling in SS media. A simple de-burring tool might even clean it up enough...
Kom,
That looks cool. I'm pretty much set and don't think I want to invest any more time with 300 case forming techniques.
I can confirm your comment about stainless media. What ever burr is left behind after sizing is pretty much removed after tumbling. Just a kiss with a deburr tool and it's perfect.
GC
That looks cool. I'm pretty much set and don't think I want to invest any more time with 300 case forming techniques.
I can confirm your comment about stainless media. What ever burr is left behind after sizing is pretty much removed after tumbling. Just a kiss with a deburr tool and it's perfect.
GC
I have not experienced neck splitting issues and I have easily gone 3-5 reloadings of most of my brass.
I bought an annealing machine from Grizzly Gunworks in Ontario. It works really well and was priced about the same as the US made machines.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
I can offer the Bench Source unit. Pricey but some nice features. There is another US company featured in a review I did of the unit - see my website.
As long as you can control the exposure precisely, any method works. The brass just needs to heat to around 750-800F for the time needed to soften. That's it.
Just watch that the case head doesn't heat up as you aren't far from the neck.
The lathe chuck is a wonderful heat sink and the simple and effective idea.
I made up a turntable annealer using a BBQ motor and a cover for a stove. Box made out of scrap sheetboard and good to go.
Jerry
As long as you can control the exposure precisely, any method works. The brass just needs to heat to around 750-800F for the time needed to soften. That's it.
Just watch that the case head doesn't heat up as you aren't far from the neck.
The lathe chuck is a wonderful heat sink and the simple and effective idea.
I made up a turntable annealer using a BBQ motor and a cover for a stove. Box made out of scrap sheetboard and good to go.
Jerry
