300 win mag ammo

[martinbns]

Are you then telling me that a 168 grain TSX or MRX will penetrate as deeply as the same bullet of a heavier weight in the same caliber? If so, I fail to see why they would make any heavier.
I agree that bullet construction has come a long way. But there are no magic bullets. More bullet is a better thing. A Barnes may well out penetrate a heavier Hornady or whatever but a Barnes will not out penetrate a heavier Barnes.

Todd has it right as well, the debate isn't whether the 168 will penetrate farther than the 180 TSX, but how much more penetration do you need. Last yearI shot a decent sized whitetail buck at about 175 yards with 168 gr TSX from a 300 WSM, impact velocity would have been about 2700 fps. The 168 blew through 6 inches of buck spine and then 6 inches of spruce tree fifteen feet behind the dead deer. Stubble and tod's point is the 168 gre TSX will out penetrate just about any other 200 gr bullet including most 200 gr premium's, especially at 300 win mor better velocities. The 180 gr TSX in a 30 calibre is a waste of 12 grs of copper.

 

[MTM]

300 Mags

I said 300 Mags work quite well other guns work very well. I do have a hard time wrapping my mind around a .44 mag. for Moose. I've read accounts of hard cast handgun bullets doing amazing things but personally I'd feel better with the rifle. When I used the 300s alot I always used 200 Noslers because at the time they were the best. When Barnes became available I tried them in most calibers. Only had good luck with the big ones. This year I've got TSX loads for all my guns, they shoot very well in everything I've tried so far. I've even got 168 TSXs for my 300 H & H , strickly Deer mind you.

 

[stubblejumper]

Casuall posted

Two years into it, I gave up on the .300 Wby. It just doesn't do what I want, I don't like to chase big wounded animals for all sort of reasons.

You posted

I used the 300 mags a bunch, they worked quite well.

Unless quite well means chasing big wounded animals for all sort of reasons,you aren't agreeing at all.

And it doesn't sound like you are agreeing on the 44mag as moose cartridge either.

 

[Casull]

You are now quoting case lengths as a measure of power. A 40mm grenade is 2.5" long, but I don't want to be anywhere near it. Big heavy bullets even moving slowly kill very well. The .44 mag up close or the .45 Colt kill far better than any .30 with any bullet with a plain old cast bullet. The size of the hole is just greater. Their very low velocities limit their range to very short distances. This is the advantage of the .45/70 and so on up.
I have never recommended a 416 to a new shooter. My points all said, a gun you can handle and shot well regardless of caliber. A miss with a 1" Gatling is still a miss. A good .45/70 is a reasonable place for a new shooter to start though.
The difference between a 168 grain TSX and a 180 TSX is almost nothing. But there is a reason they make a 200 grain .30 TSX and it's to get in farther than the lighter ones.
Through this whole thing I have said the 200 TSX will penetrate deeper than the 168 TSX not that a 200 Hornady or whatever previous bullet will. We know they are a better bullet than was previously available. The question was, what is the use of the heavier bullet, or why would one want the heavier bullet? My answer it that one would want the heavier bullet because it will penetrate deeper on large game and it will.
There may not be a need for this on deer or light stuff, there is on big animals such as moose.
Try a big bore sometime, there is a vast difference in the effect. Even the short little .44 delivers up close. They have been used out of handguns and carbines for years and work well in their range. I have shot some deer and bears with .45Colt and .454Casull as well as .300 mag. The pistol rounds had far more effect and killed much more quickly and efficently. The big rifle rounds do the same but add the ability to do it to the ranges the .300 will work at. Bigger holes make critters dead faster!
I will load my .45/70 up or a .50 whatever and stand next to anyone shooting any .300 mag you like and the result on any media will be greatly different. You guess which is going to show more results. Bring your .30 and I will show you!

 

[Casull]

I also said my .300 worked fine until I came to the north. MTM lives on Vancouver island, is that north for you? The .300 will work on lighter game and heavy game too with heavy bullets. MTM was saying the same I was. Until I threw the north and bigger critters into the mix. I had my .300 a long time. It's not what I pick up to hunt big animals though, if I do south for a deer hunt, maybe I'll use a .300.
You really need to start listening.

 

[stubblejumper]

You are now quoting case lengths as a measure of power.

Actually it was the game department making these assumptions and drafting the regulations.Remember that it was you that brought up and defended the game department regulations for bison.When the regulations supported your opinion,you supported the regulations,however when they contradict your opinion,you disagree with them I have never favored any of the regulations that were brought up in this thread.I just brought up the one on case length to see your reaction,which was exactly what I expected.

The .300 will work on lighter game and heavy game too with heavy bullets.

Two years into it, I gave up on the .300 Wby. It just doesn't do what I want, I don't like to chase big wounded animals for all sort of reasons.

Now you are contradicting yourself.

 

[Casull]

Not at all. I didn't say the .300 didn't work for me, I said it didn't do what I wanted it too.
You were screaming how bad the game regs were. Now because Alberta used to say what you want to hear, you are quoting them. Firstly I am not talking about Alberta, and they changed that law to boot! Cartridge length being a measure of power is just an old an quick and dirty way of getting rid of the old pistol rounds. I am not knocking Alberta, I spend a lot of time there and like it very much. I am hoping to hunt there again soon.
You seem to jump to huge conclusions based on what you half read and didn't pay any attention too in what I wrote. It's not working though, you have not yet made a statement I cannot rebut. The reason is, you are stuck in a wrong idea and listening to nothing. I was listening to you, but you lost me with the insults. You are not debating a cartridge you are mad and stuck with a bad idea regardless of opinions to the contrary.
I still say, I can make my .45 or .50 out penetrate anything you can do with your .300! You think up the media and I'll show you. If I'm wrong, I will give you a new .300 barrel.

 

[Casull]

To top it off. Have you ever seen the results of penetration tests with .44 mags and .45 Colt with cast bullets? They are incredible penetrators and go deeper than high velocity expanding rifle bullets. I once drove a solid cast 350 grain bullet from a Freedom Arms revolver clean through two large cresoted poles together. Velocity was about 1700 fps. with a .452" bullet.
I have shot deer and bear with a pistol in the US during my time in the US. I had fine results with the .454 and clean kills. All within 50 yards though.

 

[MTM]

Actually I live in Langley . I hunt all over the province. Over the years I've used a large number of different calibers for hunting and just experimenting. I've taken big game(deer and up) with quite a few from .270 to the .416s. I used to use my .338 for Deer, I switched to the STW for a few years. Now I'm back to my .338, it has all the reach I can really use and dropps them even better. Its the same for big aminals , yes the .30s will kill them no doubt. Hit them with a .375 or .416 and its like hitting a Deer with the .338.

 

[stubblejumper]

You are not debating a cartridge you are mad and stuck with a bad idea regardless of opinions to the contrary.
.

Actually I am far from angry.I am actually finding it amusing to keep finding contradictions in your posts and holes in your theory.Unfortunately you are not much of a challenge to debate even though you keep trying.I feel like I am poking a caged animal with a stick,and the novelty of getting you worked up is wearing off.
As for my opinions that lighter weight tsx bullets work as well or better than other heavy for caliber bullets,and that the 300magnums are excellent choices for hunting moose and other large game, people such as Tod and Gatehouse and several others,have posted that they share this opinion ,so I consider myself in good company.
However as I stated earlier in my post,I am finding it far too easy to get you worked up,and as a result I am growing bored with this thread,so I will leave to to deal with your issues on your own.

 

[Casull]

Did I just see a challenged ducked?
You have not found a single contradiction yet. You supposed a few because you don't read well. Your theory has not been challenging your lack of communication skills has made getting an idea into you the challenge!
I'm not even close to worked up. I just know what I'm talking about.
I guess if you can get someone to halfway agree with you, you are right. I'm not concerned what others think or agree with. I answered your question though you weren't listening. I told you I have a different opinion and my experiences have built my opinions. What anyone takes from the debate is up to them. I noticed you quickly wanted to depart when I suggested we prove our theories though.

 

[280_ACKLEY]

To top it off. Have you ever seen the results of penetration tests with .44 mags and .45 Colt with cast bullets? They are incredible penetrators and go deeper than high velocity expanding rifle bullets. I once drove a solid cast 350 grain bullet from a Freedom Arms revolver clean through two large cresoted poles together. Velocity was about 1700 fps. with a .452" bullet.
I have shot deer and bear with a pistol in the US during my time in the US. I had fine results with the .454 and clean kills. All within 50 yards though.

I've seen well placed 330gr hardcast WW from a 45 colt fail miserably on a mtn goat a buddy shot (numerous shots through the vitals), and he also had poor results on a nice whitetail buck and a black bear.

Penetration means little without expansion... they are solids... no two ways about it.

Give me a 168gr TSX @ 3150fps... it'll expand larger than the 45 slug, and just plain kill #### quicker!

The TSX levels the playing field, and makes small/medium cartridges shine.

I sold my 45-70 and 35 Whelen..... there is NOTHING they did that my 280AI can't do with a 140gr TSX @ 3167fps....and that is based on a good number of kills.

Will the 200gr TSX outpenetrate the 180gr TSX.... who cares when they are both orbiting the earth after they exit.

My idea of perfect is a TSX w/BC of .250ish doing 3000+fps....happiness is dealing death via a speeding TSX crushing bones and turning vitals to goo.... try it sometime!

280_ACKLEY

 

[MTM]

300 Mags

I still say bigger calibers work better on big stuff but this year my all around load is the .338 210 TSX at 3450 fps. Does that put me in the little bullet camp?

 

[Casull]

Your buddy's results were not the same as mine. The .45s I used did kill very fast. I tried casts as well as Hornady XTP bullets. Both gave good results and knocked things over well. The impressive part was that they literally flipped the deer on their sides and they stayed there. With a cast though, there is no expansion. It goes in .45 and comes out the same. The XTP changed that though, expanded to .75. I have recovered .50 bullets over an 1" in diamter. There is a wound channel.
I will gladly give the TSXs a try. My buddy is using them this year from his .375 on moose. I hope to see what it does. There is still no way a .30 TSX is equal to a .375 TSX.
I have been wanting a .280 for a long time. I have a barrel and will try one. It might be the next project. I would hunt deer with it though, not big animals. Yes, I am sure it will kill one, but it's not what I will be using.
There is no magic bullet! I'm glad the TSXs and whatever are doing good things, but I won't be listing a .35 Whelan anytime soon.
Is the .338 a little bullet? That might be another thread. I have a Mark V SS in .340 Wby. speeding toward me at this minute as fast as CP can get it from Ontario to Yukon(thanks Doug). I will try that out too before I pull the barrel off and put on this new .416 blank I have here and make it a Rigby. Imagine a 400 grain TSX from a Rigby at 2700 fps. If they are what you guys say, the darn thing might never slow down.

 

[280_ACKLEY]

There is still no way a .30 TSX is equal to a .375 TSX.

Agree 100% with you on this one... but Ol' Elmer would have rethunk his theories if he'd used TSX's in the smaller stuff.

I'll take my 280AI w/140gr TSX @ 3167fps over my 35 Whelen loaded with 250gr Speer or Hornady any day of the week... I guess we'll just agree to disagree....

280_ACKLEY

 

[prosper]

I still say bigger calibers work better on big stuff but this year my all around load is the .338 210 TSX at 3450 fps. Does that put me in the little bullet camp?

No, that puts you in the "stay the HELL away from me when you're shooting that thing" camp Even the 338 Lapua is only moving 210's at ~3200-3300fps

 

[mylesrom]

I still say bigger calibers work better on big stuff but this year my all around load is the .338 210 TSX at 3450 fps. Does that put me in the little bullet camp?

What .338 are you pushing 3450 with???

what is the load data on that one.

 

[todbartell]

I b elieve its a 378 Wby parent case

 

[444shooter]

Just bought myself a .338/378 Wby
Looking forward to testing some TSX bullets out.

 

[Casull]

"I'll take my 280AI w/140gr TSX @ 3167fps over my 35 Whelen loaded with 250gr Speer or Hornady any day of the week"
But would you take this over the .35 Whelan with 225 grain TSX bullets? The Whelan has to be more effective with it's larger wound channel and heavier weight. I see it will give up trajectory to a .280 improved also. I see your point of when is it too much of a good thing too. With moose I wouldn't say a .35 Whelan even with TSX bullets is anything like too much though.
You surely have piqued my interest though. I want to try out some TSX bullets on game now. As I said, I have used XLC and standard X bullets on game. They worked fine, not a complaint, but nothing that another bullet wouldn't have done either.
I had really bad results testing some Hawk bullets some years back.
If we all liked the same thing it would be pretty boring wouldn't it?
I wonder what old Elmer would have thought of these new bullets. I enjoy reading Keith, I think he knew his stuff. Some of it still holds true, some not as much. I like big calibers and big bore rifles. But I am not blind to what others are doing, but neither do I believe everything because it's in an ad or article. There are lots of conflicting articles. And too much armchair theory and not enough hands on. Smaller calibers seem to be more dependant on advanced bullet design especially when very high velocity comes into play. Big bores play by old rules, make a big hole and make it dead. Big bullets are easy to make perform and harder to overrun.
The .338 Lapua seems to be kept rather tame in factory loads and reloading manuals. It should do better.
I had a .338/378, one hell of a perfomer. Too fast for me though, my shots are normally close. But it sure was a long range powerhouse but really loud. Bullcoon on here has made many of them. I have a new .375 RUM barrel but not a lot of interest in it. Anyone have a Rem700 they want to make into a .375RUM?