.308, 00 buck, or slug for grizzly?!

[723723]

Here is a pic of my 14" and a 18.5" Rem 870 12 gauge shotguns.

Have you ever chrony'd the 14 and 18.5 barrels? Checked too see how much KE muzzle velocity you've lost going with 14.

10 inch barrels are better suited for deer defence rather than bear defence, I mean they've potentially pissed away 50% of the loads KE (the last thing you want is 800lb griz catching the slug with its teeth as it's about to chow down for dinner) most of these posts are saying a 12g is anemic bear defence gun to start with so why throw away all that power.

A 12g hard cast 650 grain dixie slug has more than enough penetration to down a bear or elephant for that matter.

All this talk about not having enough penetration is BS.

Most of the penetration tests these guys refer to have been done with off the shelf soft loads not hard cast max loads (an apple to apple comparison would be nice for a change. The US military has developed 12g armor piercing steel/tungsten loads) no animal on the planet is going to survive an encounter with that.

 

[iroc22]

Many years ago I got a copy of a study done by the US Dept of Agriculture re bear defense for work crews in Alaska. Good read and well done.

Dug up an URL for it: http://www.treesearch.fs.fed.us/pubs/5573

THIS COULD BE THE END OF THE NEVER ENDING BEAR DEFENSE threads.

I posted that article way back on page 7 already

.

 

[ipscgraz]

I posted that article way back on page 7 already

.

Yup; you did. I didn't read the whole thread and I didn't think there would be this much discussion if that article was out in the open.

 

[savagefan]

Jeez, maybe I should keep my BRNO.

 

[rhshooter]

would you be confident using a 180 gr .308 to drop a grizzly?

what about a 3" 00 buck or a high velocity slug in a 12ga?

its for camping. one in a billion chance of needing it and it probably wouldnt even be handy at the time, but if it ever happened i would be kicking myself in the rear for not having one with.

When he's about 200 yards away hit him with the 308. If he gets to 100 I'd fire the slug. If he still wants the 00 buck then give it to him at 5 yards. I'd be confident in that...

Seriously though I would want the 308. In a semi.... and he's getting the whole magazine if he charges.

Jeff

 

[Camp Cook]

I've looked for years where in Canada can you find Dixie slugs?

 

[iroc22]

Yup; you did. I didn't read the whole thread and I didn't think there would be this much discussion if that article was out in the open.

I totally agree with you

 

[USP]

Many years ago I got a copy of a study done by the US Dept of Agriculture re bear defense for work crews in Alaska. Good read and well done.

Dug up an URL for it: http://www.treesearch.fs.fed.us/pubs/5573

THIS COULD BE THE END OF THE NEVER ENDING BEAR DEFENSE threads.

Top score was 458 Win Mag
Highest penetration was 45 70 out of a Marlin with 300 Grn bullets...24 inches!!

1 458
2 460
3 375 H&H 300 GR with long barrel
4 338 WIN MAG 260 GR with short barrel
5 375 H&H 270 GR with long barrel
6 338 WIN MAG 200 GR with short barrel
7 338 WIN MAG 250 GR with short barrel
8 338 WIN MAG 200 GR with long barrel
9 338 WIN MAG 300 GR with long barrel
10 375 H&H 300 GR with short barrel
11 30-06 220 GR
12 30-06 180 GR
13 444
14 358
15 7 MAG
16 375 H&H 270 GR with short barrel
17 45-70 300 GR with short barrel
18 308 180GR
19 45-70 300 GR with LONG barrel
"In our tests the 12 gauge rifled slug did not have a high overall rank because of the relatively low striking energy and the lack of bullet expansion."

"We also tested the penetration of 00 buckshot.

...the 9 pellets had a spread of of about 12 X12 inches and a penetration of only 2 to 3 inches. We then shortened the range to 15 feet. From this distance the spread was 2 inches and the maximum penetration of a single shot was 7 inches. At the shorter range the nine pellets appear to act as a single projectile and the 00 buckshot might be relatively effective."

"From our tests it would appear the slug is much superior to buckshot...

Whether buckshot would be lethal beyond 5 yds is doubtful."

"Hitting a brown bear with buckshot beyond 5 yards may mean a nonlethal wound and a very active, angry bear."

"Hitting vital areas is the important thing"

The moral of the story is a rifle is better with heavy hard nose bullets and you have to hit it where it will do some damage.

bg

IIRC correctly this study or another similar one made the point that the fatality rate was highest for those who shot the bear and didnt kill it, higher than those who didnt shoot. So if you have to shoot you better drop the bear, preferably with one shot or your dinner.

 

[condition1]

IIRC correctly this study or another similar one made the point that the fatality rate was highest for those who shot the bear and didnt kill it, higher than those who didnt shoot. So if you have to shoot you better drop the bear, preferably with one shot or your dinner.

http://www.blackbearheaven.com/best-kill-shot-black-bear.htm

 

[CatfishSteve]

Forget the buckshot. It's unreliable for any game past 30 yards.
"...get 15 .33 cal projectiles to shove in his face..." As Yogi tears your's off.
A griz is faster than you'll ever be. He can run at 35 mph. That's 100 yards in 5.8 seconds. If you can't get to any rifle or slug loaded shotgun faster than that, you might as well use bear spray. Bear spray is mostly cayenne. You'll be seasoned.
No rifle bullet or 12 ga. slug is going to stop anything in its tracks unless you get really lucky and break the spine with the first shot.

30 YARDS!!!! were not talking about hunting were talking bear defence that means hes ripping the tent open kinda close my money is on
00 3'' in the neck diconecting brain from body each 60gr ball is producing 199.977 ft-lbs of energy with remingtons 3" mag 00 at 1225fps so thats 2999.655 ft-lbs of energy and the best part about a double is... I think most would agree that when you start reaching for your gun, cause you know a bear is going to attack you. Your only going to get one shot (unless you got a semi) but with a double you got two shots just as fast as you got one. So now your looking at 5999.31 ft-lbs of energy localised in a tight area. I haven't done the math on the other stuff but I don't see me needing more than that.

 

[CatfishSteve]

Have you ever chrony'd the 14 and 18.5 barrels? Checked too see how much KE muzzle velocity you've lost going with 14.

10 inch barrels are better suited for deer defence rather than bear defence, I mean they've potentially pissed away 50% of the loads KE (the last thing you want is 800lb griz catching the slug with its teeth as it's about to chow down for dinner) most of these posts are saying a 12g is anemic bear defence gun to start with so why throw away all that power.

A 12g hard cast 650 grain dixie slug has more than enough penetration to down a bear or elephant for that matter.

All this talk about not having enough penetration is BS.

Most of the penetration tests these guys refer to have been done with off the shelf soft loads not hard cast max loads (an apple to apple comparison would be nice for a change. The US military has developed 12g armor piercing steel/tungsten loads) no animal on the planet is going to survive an encounter with that.

Todays mordern shotgun powders burn in the first 10 to 14 inches

 

[USP]

30 YARDS!!!! were not talking about hunting were talking bear defence that means hes ripping the tent open kinda close my money is on
00 3'' in the neck diconecting brain from body each 60gr ball is producing 199.977 ft-lbs of energy with remingtons 3" mag 00 at 1225fps so thats 2999.655 ft-lbs of energy and the best part about a double is... I think most would agree that when you start reaching for your gun, cause you know a bear is going to attack you. Your only going to get one shot (unless you got a semi) but with a double you got two shots just as fast as you got one. So now your looking at 5999.31 ft-lbs of energy localised in a tight area. I haven't done the math on the other stuff but I don't see me needing more than that.

I believe the issue is that Buckshot will be unable to penetrate deep enough to effectively stop a charging or attacking Coastal/Grizzly Bear, maybe it would be enough for a smaller Black Bear. So what if your Buck shot actually kills the bear if it takes 3 hours to drop dead. I dont believe the pellets offer enough knockdown power/penetration for a large heavy skinned predator, perhaps for something like a large cat it would be ok.

I dont get why some prefer Buckshot over Slugs, you still have to aim both of them and good hard hitting slugs are quite cheap.

I am glad that we dont have Grizzlies in Ontario, they are big and scary. The Black Bears we have around here you could probably kill with a T ball bat after youve had a few beers...

I bought a 45/70 for when I finally go camping up in Alaska, or maybe by then Ill have my Sako .375HH.

 

[tactical lever]

Obviously never had a bear encounter? Ever shot a bear? Ever even seen a bear in the bush?

The FIRST thing you're going to want to do is save your own hide, whatever happens after that, happens.

R.

No, never ever! But if I did, I would take your advice and make sure it was still healthy enough to run away. Or chew me up a little. That's why Alaskan guides use pepper spray and bear poppers as back up. I'd also like to see what kind of bear defence gives you enough time to empty 10 shots out of a bolt action. Not sure why you specify .303, maybe it's from all your experience hunting with Karamojo Bell, but if you look at a ballistics chart, or heck go balls out and chrony some hand loads, you'll find the .308 has a little more steam plus it's a little easier to find Nosler Partitions, Barne's X and other premium high weight retention, deep penetrating bullets for the .308.

 

[pharaoh2]

But if I did, I would take your advice and make sure it was still healthy enough to run away. Or chew me up a little.

The last thing you want to deal with is an angry, still very much alive wounded bear. I'm pretty sure he won't run away or chew you up a little. He's going to turn you into poop!

 

[723723]

Todays mordern shotgun powders burn in the first 10 to 14 inches

Haven't seen that data. Please post link w/ chrony data.

17/18 inches used to be the magic number.

 

[Desette]

Thanks to both people who posted relevant data that had been checked and researched and not just an opinion that was actually quite a cool article. +1

On the side note personal choice (before the article) would have been slug for me and then if more calibers were allowed for choice it would be a 45-70.

But what happened to bear spray does everyone doubt its effectiveness? Seriously I'd use that before I would use much else.

I haven’t seen many studies that say bear spray doesn’t work and it costs at the most $40.

Anyone have bear spray experience or comments while we’re at it? Because I think by far this is better than any firearm option because it doesn’t kill the animal and its works near %100 of the time (don’t get me wrong though I'm no bear loving hippy, it charges at you, make it dead)

 

[723723]

ipscgraz it's not an apples to apples comparison they used standard off shelf loads in their test.

The boys at theboxotruth.com conducted their tests in the same shoddy manner.

All these tests used 12g ammo loads specifically designed for medium size game animals i.e. deer hunters not dangerous game loads per the ammo. manufacturers.

Check out the dixie slugs website.

The fact is a 12g hard cast projectile weighing 650 + grains with a .72 cal sectional density, 100% retention spec. specifically designed for dangerous game animals creates one hell of a wound channel.

All things being equal KE wise the heavier/harder projectile is the way to go in a close encounter defensive situation with a dangerous game animal. If it can drop an elephant, it's going to drop a charging bear or lion in its tracks as long as the shot hits the mark (it's toast).

 

[t-star]

actually i know a guy that outfits/guides in alaska- his bears run a tad bigger- and his gun is a 338 win mag in a bar for "close encounters"- and he runs 275 grainers- i think a 308/12/45-70 would get you laughed right out of that camp

 

[Boomer]

But what happened to bear spray does everyone doubt its effectiveness? Seriously I'd use that before I would use much else.

I haven’t seen many studies that say bear spray doesn’t work and it costs at the most $40.

Gary Shelton makes a good case for bear spray in his trilogy of books on bear defense, but it must be used correctly in order to be effective and this requires that you train with it as you would with a firearm. Bear spray's effectiveness can be degraded by range, vegetation, and wind and it is useful to know these limitations before deciding it is a panacea.

 

[pharaoh2]

But what happened to bear spray does everyone doubt its effectiveness? Seriously I'd use that before I would use much else.

I haven’t seen many studies that say bear spray doesn’t work and it costs at the most $40.

Anyone have bear spray experience or comments while we’re at it? Because I think by far this is better than any firearm option because it doesn’t kill the animal and its works near %100 of the time (don’t get me wrong though I'm no bear loving hippy, it charges at you, make it dead)

The problem that you should be all to aware of is you live in Southern Alberta. Wind is your enemy here. Chances are if the wind were at your back you'd have no problem. If the wind is coming at your face, anything in front of you wont smell you coming and any spray you get off will come back and get you too.