.308, 00 buck, or slug for grizzly?!

I have never shot any griz but I have been chased by one... If it were to happen again I would be a lot more comfortable with a .338 Win Mag or a .375 H&H. Preferably in a semi...

Jeff
 
I load 350gr Swift A-Frames @ 2150fps, 525gr WLNGC Piledriver's @ 1600fps & 550gr WLNGC Crater's @ 1580fps in my Marlin 1895GS 45-70.

I now really only carry this rifle when I am in black bear country for grizzly country I will now be carrying my 21" Rem 700 LSS in 375RUM my bullet of choice was a 300gr A-Frame @ 2720fps but I just ordered 100 of the newly released Barnes .375" 350gr TSX that I am going to load to appr 2450fps - 2500fps...

I'm thinking these bullets should penetrate... :D
 
ipscgraz said:
Many years ago I got a copy of a study done by the US Dept of Agriculture re bear defense for work crews in Alaska. Good read and well done.

Dug up an URL for it: http://www.treesearch.fs.fed.us/pubs/5573

THIS COULD BE THE END OF THE NEVER ENDING BEAR DEFENSE threads.

Top score was 458 Win Mag
Highest penetration was 45 70 out of a Marlin with 300 Grn bullets...24 inches!!

1 458
2 460
3 375 H&H 300 GR with long barrel
4 338 WIN MAG 260 GR with short barrel
5 375 H&H 270 GR with long barrel
6 338 WIN MAG 200 GR with short barrel
7 338 WIN MAG 250 GR with short barrel
8 338 WIN MAG 200 GR with long barrel
9 338 WIN MAG 300 GR with long barrel
10 375 H&H 300 GR with short barrel
11 30-06 220 GR
12 30-06 180 GR
13 444
14 358
15 7 MAG
16 375 H&H 270 GR with short barrel
17 45-70 300 GR with short barrel
18 308 180GR
19 45-70 300 GR with LONG barrel
"In our tests the 12 gauge rifled slug did not have a high overall rank because of the relatively low striking energy and the lack of bullet expansion."

"We also tested the penetration of 00 buckshot.

...the 9 pellets had a spread of of about 12 X12 inches and a penetration of only 2 to 3 inches. We then shortened the range to 15 feet. From this distance the spread was 2 inches and the maximum penetration of a single shot was 7 inches. At the shorter range the nine pellets appear to act as a single projectile and the 00 buckshot might be relatively effective."

"From our tests it would appear the slug is much superior to buckshot...

Whether buckshot would be lethal beyond 5 yds is doubtful."

"Hitting a brown bear with buckshot beyond 5 yards may mean a nonlethal wound and a very active, angry bear."

"Hitting vital areas is the important thing"

The moral of the story is a rifle is better with heavy hard nose bullets and you have to hit it where it will do some damage.

bg
Click to expand...

Look at the actual numbers for 180 grain .308 and 180 grain .30-06. There's not much difference there.
 
Very old data

ipscgraz said:
Many years ago I got a copy of a study done by the US Dept of Agriculture re bear defense for work crews in Alaska. Good read and well done.

Dug up an URL for it: http://www.treesearch.fs.fed.us/pubs/5573

THIS COULD BE THE END OF THE NEVER ENDING BEAR DEFENSE threads.


"Hitting vital areas is the important thing"

The moral of the story is a rifle is better with heavy hard nose bullets and you have to hit it where it will do some damage.

bg
Click to expand...

In all fairness, if one looks at the data, this is from 1983.
Certainly hitting the correct spot is most important.

There was no details about the shotgun slug used, or the manufacturer.

Chances are, it was not a Brenneke or a Challenger slug tested.
And rifle bullets, there are more & better choices today as well.
 
gunsmith1951 said:
And they are off!! "said the monkey who backed into the fan" Yeeeeehaw!
Click to expand...

The only way "it" would hit the fan - so far as a monkey is concerned, anyhow ;) - is if it was flung....:p.....

Um, back to our regularly-scheduled bear thread? :D

Oh, and I like the LPO-50 for bear defence:

kill-it-with-fire.jpeg
 
The USDA study contains considerably more serious research than most of us have done and it is also more objective. Note the ranking of the .375 H&H which was considered the big bear standard in those long ago pre-internet days. Also, the good old "plain jane" .30-06 does right well in the study. Many yrs ago Alaska bear guides were buying up all of the M71 Winchesters in .348 that they could find and converting them to what was called the .450 Alaskan- a wildcat on the .348 Win case.
Bear behaviour and physiology have'nt changed at all, except for being more habituated to people in many places, but there sure has been a lot of marketting hype over new guns, cartridges, bullets and propellants in the past 40yrs. Some of the old ones are just as good or better the latest stuff in the shop window. Just think about all of the new "miracle powders" that have been flogged in the past 15 yrs alone. It's still tough to beat the old stand-bys like H4831 and IMR 4350. Many people seem to think that the lastest in gee-whiz equipment will be the ultimate determinant. At the end of the day it is still the shooter's composure and skill at bullet placement that wins out.
 
I have no issue with your calibre choices Purple but, USDA data does not include the now imported Woodliegh Weldcore soft nose bullets. In this study, the Noslers 180 grain Partitions are mentioned once, and only once??? Nosler have been making thier excellent bullet design for at least 60 years now. Today the newer Nosler Solids are specifically made for dangerous game. Another Alaskan big seller is the Corbon made, 405 grain, 45-70 Penetrator. As well, the newer Kodiak bullets are very popular up there. Even in pistol data, anyone who has spent any amount of time in South-West Alaska sporting goods shops, are aware of the excellent Arctic Ammunition company out of Anchorage. One product they did sell, was a 260 (265??) grain solid brass, flat nose, .44 magnum, wilderness defence load. It comes in handy 12 round plastic, tan colored, ammunition wallets.

The 1983 study should have included the 12 gauge Brenneke Rottweil Classic slug with the felt base. It's only THE most popular shotgun slug in Alaska during salmon season, maybe second only to the newer Brenneke Black Magic Magnum slug. No store in Juneau could keep these in stock, as they literally flew off the gun shop shelves. Everyone bragged about 'those good German slugs.'
I had to take thier word for it. Brenneke slugs are standard issue for Alaskan State Police for use against bear/moose & Brennekes are also stored in survival gear for Alaskan Wilderness Firefighters.

The market does have newer options, therefore the 1983 data is dinosaur old.
 
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