308 and moose at 600m to 700m?

KodiakHntr said:
See now you are doing it again, making assumptions. Or you are deliberately not reading what I wrote. Personally, I would have no idea on where or how to purchase 200lbs of free range elk meat. I do know I can find it in my back field in October though. I also know that a friend of mine has a beef allergy. Elk meat doesn’t put her in the hospital, but beef will.
However, my only point was that not everyone hunts “for the chase” or “the challenge “ or to be “sportsmanlike”. And as long as that person is hunting within the law, and their capabilities then who are you to judge them
with your personal beliefs and ethics. Ethics are a highly personal thing, and not easily transferable from one person to another.



I personally think that a lot of animals are wounded at distances much less than 200 yards by guys who get hit with buck fever, or ran up a rise and fling a bullet while puffing hard and unable to steady their rifle. It isn’t necessarily a distance thing. There are a lot of factors that come into play when it comes to making shots that count.
Although I do tend to forget that everyone on cgn is a steely-eyed sharpshooter with ice in their veins, as long as the shot is under 300 metres.
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Seems like there's lots of that going around. Sorry for making assumptions about your hypothetical theoretical situations... and of course the excuses are always a nice touch too.
Put the cherry on the top... Say he could be in a wheelchair.... If we're playing with theoretical hypothetical situations... You might as well make it a big one
 
Well, Tok, YOU are the guy yelling about honor and playing fair. At what distance is it more honorable to smash a bullet into an animal at high speed? At what distance does it become less honorable? Less fair?

As far as I’m concerned unless you are jumping on its back with only mud and twigs smeared over your naked body and killing it with your own claws and jaws then there is no honor involved. Hell, if you are using a hand hewn stone knife then that sure as hell isn’t “fair chase” because that moose doesn’t have opposable thumbs and he couldn’t fashion one for self defense to protect himself from you. Canadian law is based on “equal force”, so you using a rifle is absolutely not
fair, and it doesn’t get more Canadian than a moose, unless maybe it was playing hockey with a beaver.

That’s hardly fair. Certainly not “fair chase”, using a rifle.
 
Not actually yelling LoL. That would be cap's lock.
At what distance are the animals sense of sight, smell and hearing rendered absolutely useless would be the short version. Sorta like the B& C suggests. At 400 or 500 yds they should still have some natural ability to flee.
At a 1000 yds... which is the distance that started this debate... I'm certain that the animals natural senses that it uses to identify and allude prey are long gone.
So, I'm alluding to the fellow who stated that his friend shoots moose at 1000 yds...always have been.
At a 1000 yds the animal basically has '0' defense against a human with a rifle that can harvest them.
Zero.
That's how some folks roll apparently. Might as well put a game farm animal inside some hog wire and back off to 1000 yards. Prove your worth that way... if you mess up and gut shoot it... it'll still be in the hogwire.
At this point the Quigley Down Under Wanna be's can split hairs about morality all they want ( At what point... there is no number!)... you ain't hunting...and it ain't fair play.
You are harvesting animals that have had all defences rendered useless by excessive distance.
Shoot a enemy combatant at that range... I'll buy you a beer. They have the ability to realize the threat... but a moose?
I think game animals deserve a better shake at it than a 1000 yd death. A brisk puff of wind means evisceration is a very real mishap. Some guys are good with tossing a coin on the animals behalf...oops, kinda miscalculated. Pity about it running away gutshot... sorry...at 1000 yds...I can't fix that very well.
As far as 'I bet more at 200 yds...' BS... that is an assumption as well
 
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There are game farms stateside where they tie a hog to a tree and let the client shoot it.
That's grocery shopping, not hunting.
They come back to Canada stringing a BS story of the big hunt and being charged by el porko. ;)
 
I get sucked into this debate most years sadly. I hunt every year...and get softer every year. Usually come across 2-3 expired animals in the tall grass... not necessarily long range, totally saying this.
Set out on my deck swing most night and watch the does and fawns wander through, hollering at the dog " Quit barking damn you, they got more right to be here than you do, ya dumb mutt!".
Most folks don't get out except hunting season, me...I can go see some deer in under 10 min's walk.
I respect them and think they deserve a chance to elude me. Cracking out the 338 on a bipod with a digital ranging optic... really. You are gonna argue about fair play?
I'll burn a tag to put someone else's ##### up out of it's agony... how many snipa's are going to do that? "Come on, I practiced so diligently!"
I appreciate good shooting. but please don't call it hunting. It's harvesting. A step or two above the Manitoba Harvest with a spotlight... but it is just harvesting. With really poor reasoning IMO "I can do it; therefore I shall... no regs say a number!" Ethics are spotty in your world?
Throwing rocks at cripples.
 
Heard a story from a co-worker many years ago. Both he and I now in our mid-60's. When my friend was a young teen, he and his younger brother pushed a poplar bush for white-tail - Dad was posting on far side along a barb wire fence - at the edge of a 40 acre pasture. If the quarter was half decently cross fenced, that would be 440 yards to the far side of pasture. My friend described hearing his Dad start to shoot, and shoot, and shoot. The older guy carried a No. 4 Lee Enfield - 10 rounds in magazine and one in the chamber, so 11 rounds on board, for just such an occasion. After hearing multiple, multiple shots, my friend heard his Dad yell "I got him", and no more shots. When he got to the end of the poplar bush, sure enough - his Dad was more than half way across that field, and looked like a deer up against that barb wire fence on the far side. Which turned out to be hit in the back of it's head. With Dad's 11th shot. For years, the Dad would go on about how a 303 Lee Enfield was an ideal rifle for shooting deer in the head that 400 yards, because he had done so - just ask the sons. Which was true. He seemed to mis-remember the previous 10 misses, though, starting no more than 25 yards from him...
 
In a past life the guy I was hunting with did a Hail Mary shot in the pasture..
Nailed it first shot..right in the hoof
We did get it but it was a struggle
Never went hunting with him again
 
Kodiac, I agree with you. TOK is imposing his views on every hunter. IIRC, he has hit my ignore list before. Probably something like this discussion was the occasion.
 
tokguy said:
you ain't hunting...and it ain't fair play.
You are harvesting animals that have had all defences rendered useless
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You are still making the assumption or forcing your personal ethics on others when you state that YOUR distance or definition of it is THE distance everyone should abide by, and that YOUR reasons to hunt or kill game is the only acceptable reason to do so.
I have to point out (again) that not everyone who sets out with a rifle is interested in your definition of “fair chase” or “hunting” due to their own motivations and reasons for being outside with animals.
Not everyone shares your views on “respecting the animal” when they smash the life out of it with a bullet breaking bones and destroying organs. I will let you in on a little secret though… The animal doesn’t care if you respected him before you snuffed his lights out.
All he knows is that everything out there with teeth wants to eat him. He doesn’t care if he had his jaw shot off by a head shooter at 67 yards, or if his front wheel was shot off when he jumped a fence 80 yards away from a guy with a pump action as he runs from the dogs, and he doesn’t care if he had a hole poked in his belly from 700 yards with some surplus 178gr ball ammo.
Nature isn’t “fair”, and animals don’t have any concept of “fair chase”. All they know is alive, or dying.
Not everyone hunts for “sport”. For some folks its a way of life, and the continuation of life.


As far as 'I bet more at 200 yds...' BS... that is an assumption as well
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If you are going to quote me incorrectly at least quote my actual words.
You can call it whatever you want, but I absolutely think that if a booner buck was trotting across a brushy opening at 100 yards that the vast majority of “hunters” would be rattled and throwing bullets in its general direction hoping to
land one because “he was right there!”. Think what you will, but I’m not wrong. There likely isn’t a hunter on this forum who hasn’t “missed” a close shot well inside 200 yards or knows multiple people who have. Very few guys on this forum know anyone who is capable of and has taken a 1000m shot at a game animal. I’m not talking the guys who say stuff like “Ol Betsy shoots so flat I held on hair and kilt him deader than yesterday at 1000 yards, I mean guys who have actually set up and learned the skills and have the gear to do it. The percentages of each are vastly different. Not many guys have the will power to turn down an “easy 100 yard poke” at a truly big animal when their adrenaline is jacked up, and the animal is moving. But guys who know what is involved for a truly long shot certainly can and do turn down shots.

The ability to take poor shots when conditions are wrong isn’t limited to the long distance guys.
 
Bad ethics and underpowered calibers.

Yet it's everyone else's assumptions and error, while defending bad ethics and underpowered calibers. Not 1 in a 100 should take that shot, with rifle/caliber/practice time. I can buy Tiger Woods clubs, doesn't make drive it 350. Most 308 starts at the muzzle at the speed the bullet creates hydrostatic shock, it's all downhill from there. Bet it isn't carrying 1500 ft lbs of energy or the speed to initiate proper expansion at 400, forget 700. What next 22lr?

Quick search, table ended at 500, with 308 sub 1800 ft/sec, and about 1000 lbs energy. Drops below 1500 ft lbs at 325 yards.
 
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Kodiak; really got to you there I'm guessing. Not entirely my plan... but definitely an expected consequence.
Don't see myself as a steely eye'd killer by any means. But I am most definitely not the type to drive by an animal in distress... it's going to get taken care of. Right there and then. Killing things up and close that are in distress ain't fun. In my mind it is required if I am to entertain continuing being a hunter... can't just turn it off and turn a blind eye and continue driving past.
I get the feeling that you feel that long distance practitioners are somehow superior to the rest. That somehow the rest of us come skidding into the scene like Kramer with a Thurty thurty. Just a hunch...don't care enough to pin it with quotes of your posts. But definitely a vibe I'm getting.
Typically I shoot a lot... one of the perks of country living. But I shoot 30 cal main battle rifles off hand at realistic distances. Odds are we ain't gonna get along.
That 'nature is cruel BS' don't resonate well with me. It almost makes me think that one has justified the bad kill before it's happened. We ain't nature, we are stewards of nature for the most part. Opposable thumbs and a more evolved brain means we can do more and should exercise compassion while doing it. It's the human thing to do.
Perhaps I've spent to much time handling animals for country veterinary work. It is sad and inwardly distressing to physically deal with an animal in distress. Not handled as much as some country folk for sure... more than the average fellow I'm guessing. You spend an appreciable amount of time and effort trying to save an animal and trying to decide when it's distress needs ending... you have a dislike of folks who would entertain creating such a situation to prove their prowess at distance shooting.
And yeah, I do extend my ethics to other folk... human nature I guess.
Maybe you do know what it's like to have you hands on an animal in pain... did you know you can feel it. Actually feel it in your hands?
So continue as you will.
But don't expect me to change my ways to acknowledge that taking chances on a clean kill; by extending the distance "Well Beyond" to prove something to yourself or your buddy is correct. Don't even try to convince us that it isn't a manufactured situation the majority of the time.
Sit in your hide and keep repeating the 'Nature is cruel' Mantra if that is what allows you to do what you do.
News flash; humans are held to a much higher standard than animals in Nature...yeah we know nature is cruel. Repeating it smacks of justifying the bad shot before it happens... sort of like justifying using a marginal cartridge. Yeah we know it's 'Within the reg's'... doesn't mean that you have to do it.
Gotta pack for work...don't expect any retorts any time soon.
 
Tok, that post says that you have completely missed every point I’m trying to make here. Which is too bad, as I thought I had been pretty expressive. My bad.

I see that you are trying to subtly cast shade on me as a being a long distance towny flat brimmer. (No offense to the flat brimmers). Nope. I would dare say that I have killed stuff WAY closer than most with hand made spears.

And, I’ve been a farmer for years on my own dirt, I’ve spent days in a row awake helping critters birth, napping leaning against a post in a wind shelter. Nursed hurt animals for weeks only to have to give up and put them down in the end. So yeah, you have made assumptions about me that are wrong.

And nope, nothing you have typed has gotten to me at all, I banter with guys like you on the ‘net for entertainment, nothing more. The likelihood of us ever encountering each other is pretty slim, the fact that you exist has no bearing on my life. I just enjoy the interactions and trying to open your eyes a little bit, in that ethics are a highly personal thing.
Your ethics are based on your life experiences and beliefs, but that is all they are. Yours. Live your own life according to your own ethics. Don’t try and force them on others, they haven’t lived your life.
THAT has been my only point through all of this, side discussions notwithstanding.

As to country life and “shooting lots”, I’d put my monthly round count up against anyones (who isn’t shooting a weekly scheduled competitive setting at any rate, I live too far away to shoot competitions regularly anymore. Plus, I don’t really like being around people). I don’t really know what a “30 cal main battle rifle” would be either I suppose, but I would hazard the guess that you have a full tacticool setup right down to the plate vest and quick draw mag pouches if you are using the term “battle rifle”…. Probably even yelled “Git sum!” while mag dumping at human silhouette targets with your flat brimmer buddies (see? That was a sarcastic crack about making assumptions based on what you think you read - ie. using the term ‘battle rifle’, and made in jest, don’t get your tactical gstring in a wad)
But I do know that I would bet some beers that I could outshoot you with your own rifle offhand at realistic ranges. I grew up jump shooting whitetails in the thick stuff up close and personal like, and not much a stranger to fast engagement.

But like I said, don’t assume that I am defending long range guys, even though I have a tiny bit of experience dabbling at long-ish range, nor assume that I AM a long range guy simply because I attempted to point out a different view point.

Reply, don’t reply, up to you. Regardless, be safe on your work shift.

And to circle allllllll the way back around to the OP, if you are asking if a particular cartridge has “enough power” to complete a certain task without stating particulars about site conditions or bullets and terminal ballistics that you shouldn’t be thinking about attempting the shot on an animal.
 
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tokguy said:
At a distance that renders all of the preys defensive senses and instincts useless? No honour in that, is there.
If your friend shot a big enough animal to be B & C, he would claim it I'm guessing. So the accolades from other hunters and 'The Org' that is most prominent to recognizing North American Trophies would sure be cool...probably make the trophy worth a few bucks too.
But harvesting the animal in a manner consistent with B & C's suggestions is obviously to much to ask of him?
No honour IMO. Got shoot paper or plates at that distance and I'll shake your hand...shoot an animal at that distance... nope. Expect no accolades from anyone who hunts and 'Shows respect for the animals being hunted'
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If one sets out to harvest an animal, and they do it humanely, it really is neither here nor there the range at which the animal is shot. I would expand on your previous comment, about setting a handicap for the prey in question, if I were that animal, making my kill more sportsmanly would be a slap in the face. You are hunting with technology so far outside the animals realm of access, your attempts to attain bragging rights by telling your buddies "oh, I snuck up on him first" is an exercise in vanity. I'm not undermining either approach, or undermining the discipline of modern hunting - I am pointing out that by criticizing a successful long range shot based on it being "unsportsmanlike," you are a kettle calling a pot black. Both approaches require a level of dedication, skill and luck that call from the same pool of accolades.

afterthought: In fact, it could be considered more humane for a diligent shooter but not so diligent stalker, to take game at a longer range, in that it will reduce the potential to bump the animal and stress it out.
 
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i would think the 308 would still carry enough energy at those distances. ive smacked steel at the range at 500m and the 308 hits it with authority. the real question is whether the bullet still has enough energy to reliably expand? (my guess is if your using something like ELD-X then yes since its intended for long range hunting), second is the shooter up to the task and posses the skill to make the shot?, and third is, are the weather conditions suitable to make the shot? (like heavy wind or rain etc.) ....

on a perfect day with the right setup and a skilled shooter. your most likely going to produce a clean kill.

but boy that distance leave a whole lot of room for error if conditions aren't perfect. personally i would walk 150m towards the moose and make a more comfortable shot. at that distance stalking in closer would be a piece of cake. if you can make a 700m shot, 350m-450m is a walk in the park.
 
KodiakHntr said:
You are still making the assumption or forcing your personal ethics on others when you state that YOUR distance or definition of it is THE distance everyone should abide by, and that YOUR reasons to hunt or kill game is the only acceptable reason to do so.
I have to point out (again) that not everyone who sets out with a rifle is interested in your definition of “fair chase” or “hunting” due to their own motivations and reasons for being outside with animals.
Not everyone shares your views on “respecting the animal” when they smash the life out of it with a bullet breaking bones and destroying organs. I will let you in on a little secret though… The animal doesn’t care if you respected him before you snuffed his lights out.
All he knows is that everything out there with teeth wants to eat him. He doesn’t care if he had his jaw shot off by a head shooter at 67 yards, or if his front wheel was shot off when he jumped a fence 80 yards away from a guy with a pump action as he runs from the dogs, and he doesn’t care if he had a hole poked in his belly from 700 yards with some surplus 178gr ball ammo.
Nature isn’t “fair”, and animals don’t have any concept of “fair chase”. All they know is alive, or dying.
Not everyone hunts for “sport”. For some folks its a way of life, and the continuation of life.




If you are going to quote me incorrectly at least quote my actual words.
You can call it whatever you want, but I absolutely think that if a booner buck was trotting across a brushy opening at 100 yards that the vast majority of “hunters” would be rattled and throwing bullets in its general direction hoping to
land one because “he was right there!”. Think what you will, but I’m not wrong. There likely isn’t a hunter on this forum who hasn’t “missed” a close shot well inside 200 yards or knows multiple people who have. Very few guys on this forum know anyone who is capable of and has taken a 1000m shot at a game animal. I’m not talking the guys who say stuff like “Ol Betsy shoots so flat I held on hair and kilt him deader than yesterday at 1000 yards, I mean guys who have actually set up and learned the skills and have the gear to do it. The percentages of each are vastly different. Not many guys have the will power to turn down an “easy 100 yard poke” at a truly big animal when their adrenaline is jacked up, and the animal is moving. But guys who know what is involved for a truly long shot certainly can and do turn down shots.

The ability to take poor shots when conditions are wrong isn’t limited to the long distance guys.
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Well friend... You had my respect as a salty online debater... Right up until the point where you thought you might shoot better than I. That's silly. Neither of us is ever going to prove nor disprove the other wrong or right that way ...at that point you just lost any grudging respect that I was going to give you.
That's just silly and it smacks of grade school "my dad can beat up your dad"
So Keep On Keepin On... This has gone the way of so many internet arguments and spiralled down in Silliness.... I don't do so very well in hypothetical virtual p*ssing contests.
 
I remember a dude with a 300 mag take a shot at a moose at about 600,watched the bull twitch his front leg a few time before scampering off,who knows from there,it was gone.and the shooter has over a hundred moose in his past.i didn't like it then still don't.he can call a moose as good as any.heck had them come to a chainsaw more then once.but to each there own.i guess what I mean is the moose isn't getting wasted the wolves will get him.
 
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Oldly said:
I remember a dude with a 300 mag take a shot at a moose at about 600,watched the bull twitch his front leg a few time before scampering off,who knows from there,it was gone.and the shooter has over a hundred moose in his past.i didn't like it then still don't.he can call a moose as good as any.heck had them come to a chainsaw more then once.but to each there own.
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I've also seen the same happen when the shot was less than 100 yards.
 
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