.308 Semi vs Bolt?

But Kanaima, if taking your trigger finger off the bang switch makes you uncomfortable or compromises your performance a semiauto isn't the answer because you will have to do that to swap a mag, clear a jam, possibly fiddle with parallax, etc.

And just for the record I am not a 'bolt guy' either or trying to crap on the semi-auto fellas. I was just wondering if they knew something that I didn't. Obviously, the best gun for you is the one you want and if that is an auto I say smile and shoot with it!
 
I think semi's are great and have owned nice AR's, Swiss, SL8 and both heavily customed Norc M14S' and the loaded model SA M1A - all could be made to go sub-MOA but not time after time after time etc. None could do half-MOA and half MOA or better is what I now think of as precision. Can you build a half MOA semi ? Maybe. Will it stay a half MOA rifle after some trips to the range ? I don't know but, seriously, good luck and please keep us informed.
 
Glenfilthie said:
But Kanaima, if taking your trigger finger off the bang switch makes you uncomfortable or compromises your performance a semiauto isn't the answer because you will have to do that to swap a mag, clear a jam, possibly fiddle with parallax, etc.

And just for the record I am not a 'bolt guy' either or trying to crap on the semi-auto fellas. I was just wondering if they knew something that I didn't. Obviously, the best gun for you is the one you want and if that is an auto I say smile and shoot with it!
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Not sure why you are so intent on hijacking someone's thread but taking my finger off the trigger does not make me uncomfortable or compromise my performance, no more than driving an automatic transmission makes me uncomfortable or compromised. I prefer a manual transmission and I prefer an auto or lever rifle. Now why don't you put it to rest so the op can get his question answered?
 
I too would like to try my hand at 1000 yrd precision shooting, I wanted to go with the M 14 because it came the closest to reminding me of my FN C1 FAL, but as I have done the research and whatnot, I now know I want to go with a remington model 700 sps varmint .308 calibre. What would I have to change on this platform to get it out to 1000 yards with a consistant grouping, besides lots of rounds down range to practice.

Moe
 
bigmoe said:
I too would like to try my hand at 1000 yrd precision shooting, I wanted to go with the M 14 because it came the closest to reminding me of my FN C1 FAL, but as I have done the research and whatnot, I now know I want to go with a remington model 700 sps varmint .308 calibre. What would I have to change on this platform to get it out to 1000 yards with a consistant grouping, besides lots of rounds down range to practice.

Moe
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define consistent?


new stock, new barrel, true and blueprint the action, new trigger and good glass....

but a decent hand load would get you to 1000yds with ok results
 
Sorry everyone. Didn't mean to get in a pi**ing match with an idiot. My mistake.

Sheesh.

Kanaima said:
Not sure why you are so intent on hijacking someone's thread but taking my finger off the trigger does not make me uncomfortable or compromise my performance, no more than driving an automatic transmission makes me uncomfortable or compromised. I prefer a manual transmission and I prefer an auto or lever rifle. Now why don't you put it to rest so the op can get his question answered?
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If you want to learn all there is to know about accurate semis, look to the south and their high power matches.

Camp Perry pits the best of this gendre against each other. They separate m1A/garands from the AR's cause the mouse gun tears them apart. The AR's are kept apart from the space guns cause....

Most high power matches use a 1MOA bull and a 2 MOA 10 ring. using the 6.5 Creedmore and similar chamberings suited to the shorter 308 mags, the space guns dominate this game by a significant margin.

So can a gas gun be accurate, yes and no. Just depends on what you need to win.

Take this same space gun and shooter and put them on an f class target and rifles, I wonder if they could make the top half.

A burnt out F class rig will shoot with better accuracy and consistency then most new full on space guns.

Semis have come a very very long ways the last decade but so have bolt rifles.

Many factory rifles will outshoot a top tier gas rifle so build what you like. Shoot and compete as you see fit but look at the game and what you are up against.

if you need to hit a 1/2 min V bull at 1000yds, I really don't think a gas rifle will be a winning combination against top tier bolt rigs.

Jerry
 
ultimate_monkey said:
define consistent?


new stock, new barrel, true and blueprint the action, new trigger and good glass....

but a decent hand load would get you to 1000yds with ok results
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In my military years, we were trained to shoot center mass, so for me consistent would be putting three rounds in a 8" diameter. I have never shot this far out, so do not know if this is a realistic goal.
 
I hope you realise that todays top F class and precision LR rigs can hold 1/2 min or less at 1000yds.

And that is with 22rds relays.

Only up to the shooter to keep them in the 10 ring. Unfortunately, most of us aren't as good as our rifles :)

Don't get me wrong, I can offer the barrels to tune up AR type gas guns. I have shot under 1/2" groups at 100yds with my tuned up AR15 but with the bullet options that fit in the mag and the basic instability of the platform, LR consistent accuracy at 1/2 min level is pretty tough.

That is why High Power targets are double in size vs F class.

If you want to pursue an accurate gas gun, can offer you the best barrels but performance for dollars spent will favor the bolt rifle everytime.
Jerry
 
Ah, welcome to the precision semi game, where these guys call you a moron for wanting tight groups from a semi and the black rifle guys couldn't give a sh*t about the rifle beyond what bipod and QD scope mount you have. Yes we're a breed of our own!


As far as precision goes, you'll be spending alot more money for groups that resemble a $500 remmington BUT what people mostly overlook is ballistics. The longest M14 barrel you can get is 22" so what kind of MVs can we expect with the high BC (185gn) bullets? Maybe 2,500 fps? You'll be sacrificing external ballistics (ability to 'buck' the wind) more than you'll be sacrificing group size. Maybe AR-15 barrels come longer I'm not sure.

trekstor said:
Also does anyone offer adjustable gas ports for AR10 or ar15?
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A great question and one I can't answer for sure because I've never considered building a restricted precision rifle (do you have a range that goes to 1000 yards?). The M14 and M1 have aftermarket options for adjustable gas plugs and they are a life saver. I think adjustable gas plugs are such a critical peice of the puzzle for both handloaders and non-handloaders. It's too bad this 'fad' has not caught on.

That being said, if you're still hard set on a restricted AR-10/15, I'm sure you won't have much of an issue finding an adjustable gas plug, but I can garentee it won't come cheap, or soon.
 
HD, the "fad" is massive in the US where they have the ranges and freedom to use these toys. If you can find them, JP Enterprises specialises in this sort of rigs. See their stuff.... really cool... $$$ Lots of adj gas blocks there. Not that hard to make with the proper sized block.

But just want to put it in perspective. NASCARS are fast race cars relative to other forms of stock cars. Compared to the F1 rigs of the world, not in the same league.

You can build up a semi to do things SEMI owners would have thought a pipe dream 15 yrs ago. How could a little plastic "toy" beat a big manly hunk of iron launching a big strong bullet? Quite handily actually. AR's displaced the M1A/Garands in a very dramatic way. Now that tech has trickled down to every commercial AR with many top US brands offer sub MOA guarantees with off the rack rifles - and they deliver for around $999 with accessories. 1/2 min is really not that big a deal anymore at short distances like 400yds, sub MOA at 600yds. Literally hundreds on the line at Camp Perry alone

But the OP was asking about precision rifle comps out to 1000yds. Here the ballistics and platform are so far behind what you do with a bolt rifle, its not even worth mentioning.

A semi is going to have to give up 200 to 300fps at the muzzle so that something doesnt break. That is like shooting 150yds FURTHER then a bolt rifle for every target distance. Then there is the rapid loss of accuracy with MOA pretty darn hard to make at 1000yds - I would love to be proven wrong on this and maybe someday that too will change. MOA with NO WIND

Now you have doubled or tripled your mechanical cone of error. Then increased wind drift approx 15% which then increases your cone of error somemore.

It makes it possible to hit a 1/2 min target at 1000yds certainly but it will be more random then by design.

I have seen a few very accurate semis at 1000yds. An SL8 was in the 1.5 to 2mins - very impressive given the stock set up. It was sub MOA at 100yds

In FTR, our goal is to hit a 5" circle on demand at that distance under any condition presented. We of course don't come close but the rifles can.

Jerry
 
Does any semi auto rifle use the Benelli Vinci Action?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4KyM6a_qTA

Is it just me or meargin the Benelli Vinci action with a take down free floated barrel, self regulating gas system like the Benelli R1 (if needed...??) cant you run a semi auto of inertia only?, and folding stock of a sig rifle seems like perfected combination for a semi auto rifle?

It was designed to deal with 3" slugs, big recoil, and 72% less recoil would speed up re aligning your sights?

Dont the sig rifle use this system?

It could be applied in the same way as it was to the KRISS VECTOR with a upside down luger action.

Time to build a new rifle? lol, specially build semi auto DMR tac driver haha.
 
trekstor said:
Hey guys,

I am thinking of building a 1000 meter PR,

Id like it to have ability to take down the gun into smaller pieces for transport.

Ar15 in 6.5 Grandel
Ar10 .308

or for bolt gun option:

EDM Model 12 Take Down 20 inch barrel.


How accurate are you guys getting these semi autos? Model 12 can do 3" group at 600 meters. Is there any chance to duplicate that kind of performance out from a SEMI ar10 or ar15 with a match grade barrel?

Also does anyone offer adjustable gas ports for AR10 or ar15? Running 175 grain bullets could cause the bold to small into the rear if the receiver and cause receiver cracks?

Thanks for the advice.
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Your most accurate semi autos will be AR10 based rifles, and the famous WA2000 (Would love to own one but it's 35K and up). The AR10 with DI uses the same fundamentals as accurate bolt guns. Free float match barrel, synthetic stock, no piston system and match trigger. AR10 based semi autos are the easiest and cheapest to get excellent accuracy out of for the bigger semi autos.

I don't know about 1000 yards. But for 300 meters which is what the longest ranges around me have an AR10 accuracy rifle will shoot in there with a good tactical precision rifle. You won't beat the bench rest or dedicated F class rigs. But you can hang with the Tactical bolt action crowd just fine.

You don't need an adjustable gas block for 168 and 175 grain ammo. The AR10 rifles shoot this stuff just fine. Some have adjustable gas blocks, but most don't.

Entry price for an accurate AR10/AR308 rifle is about 2K. You can put together a R25 (Remington badged DPMS) possibly for cheaper. Armalite 20" SS 10T, DPMS LR-308 24" SS barrel, Rock River Arms (avoid this one due to the FAL mag) are 2K options. Note that the DPMS will need a replacement trigger. RRA NM 2 stage is what I dropped in mine. Not the most expensive but it works well and was a huge improvement over the crap stock trigger.

Here's a target I shot while up North. 100 yards 20 km/h gusts, 5 shots 167 Lapua target ammo. I was shooting inbetween the gusts when it was calm. However I screwed up the one shot and fired just after the gust hit. The wind was going directly downrange and lifted the round almost an inch high. This was shot with bags front and rear from the DPMS LR308 with 1:10 twist 24" SS barrel. Replaced trigger.

On a side note this rifle doesn't like Federal Gold at least in 168. The 1:10 twist rate I believe was the culprit. The 167 Lapua did very well. Unfortunately it's hard to find and not very cheap to shoot. This is an example of less than ideal shooting conditions. Sadly I haven't shot this one much. The scope is going on a LMT.

DPMS-target-2.jpg


The one on the left is the DPMS.

IMG_0072.jpg
 
trekstor said:
care to considering selling one?
Click to expand...

I know Id reget it if I did. They are a lot of fun to shoot.

I know in the states longer range semi AR rifles are a lot more common. First they aren't restricted and second everything is cheaper there. But keep in mind a $1200 Remington 5R will shoot as well or better than a 2K semi auto. 2K is the starting point. JP, Les Bauer, LMT with SS barrel, KAC, Armalite etc range from 3K up. You can easily spend more than 5K on these.

As others have mentioned a bolt gun can be more accurate. The rifle on the right in my picture was a Canadian DND upper. It's what our spotters for the snipers were using. The snipers however were using bolt guns. Today's semi auto is far more accurate than in the past but so are the cutting edge bolt guns.

That being said precision semi auto is a lot of fun.
 
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