Great SUMMARY of. GOOD cartridge ! What’s NOT ?? to like about it ? RJ
6.5 Grendel - 6.5 x55 AI Swede - 260 Rem - 6.5 CM - 6.5 PRC
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308 vs6.5 creedmore
- Thread starter cockawee1
- Start date
Great SUMMARY of. GOOD cartridge ! What’s NOT ?? to like about it ? RJ
6.5 Grendel - 6.5 x55 AI Swede - 260 Rem - 6.5 CM - 6.5 PRC
Read more gun magazines, you'll see it. And if you hang on US gunsites online, the volume is much, much greater. Other than that, people like to ##### about new things. Sometimes with justification, sometimes not. - dan
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
The ones that got me in this thread are, “It matches the .300 Win Mag,” or “…matches the .338 Lapua all the way out…” 
The rest I can get behind, and have even considered building one for a lightweight walking rifle. I love the .257 Roberts, so no reason I wouldn’t like the Creed. But a revolution, it is not, just another decent cartridge.
The rest I can get behind, and have even considered building one for a lightweight walking rifle. I love the .257 Roberts, so no reason I wouldn’t like the Creed. But a revolution, it is not, just another decent cartridge.
6.5 cm - 300 wm, go compare, 6.5 prc - 338 lapua go compare and enlighten yourselfThe ones that got me in this thread are, “It matches the .300 Win Mag,” or “…matches the .338 Lapua all the way out…”
that's lazy, trying to get me to go do the numbers again and bring it back here for you, go run it yourself, you'll see for yourself otherwise you came in on one leg, check your impact velocities to distances, wind drifts, hit probability, penetration potentials, apples to apples as you can (standard loads, off the shelf, the 'known standards' etc.) and you can be just as surprised as I was when I did this exercise quite some time ago
if you feel ft/lbs needs to be in there then so be it, it's hard to let go that 20th century standard/head stamps etc., the other numbers will give you 'dead', so get crackalackin with that ballistic calculator
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I did, that’s why I bring it up.
Ran it in Ballistic, find me a 6.5Cr load that shoots as flat at 500 as a 150gr GMX at 3400fps from the .300 (9” flatter, and 200fps faster than the flattest 6.5Cr load, with 25% more bullet weight and 50% more kinetic energy), arrives with as much speed at 1000 yards as the 250gr OTM from the .338 (1812fps @1000 yards, and this isn’t even the best load), and we won’t even talk energy as the .338 has as much at 500 yards as the 6.5Cr does at the muzzle.
These cartridges aren’t at all comparable, nor do they do the same work. This is my biggest misgiving with the 6.5Cr crowd, and to be clear it’s fringes of it. Most just say it’s a nice efficient little round and with that, I full heartedly agree. A .300 Win or .338 Lapua match, it isn’t in any capacity.
Ran it in Ballistic, find me a 6.5Cr load that shoots as flat at 500 as a 150gr GMX at 3400fps from the .300 (9” flatter, and 200fps faster than the flattest 6.5Cr load, with 25% more bullet weight and 50% more kinetic energy), arrives with as much speed at 1000 yards as the 250gr OTM from the .338 (1812fps @1000 yards, and this isn’t even the best load), and we won’t even talk energy as the .338 has as much at 500 yards as the 6.5Cr does at the muzzle.
These cartridges aren’t at all comparable, nor do they do the same work. This is my biggest misgiving with the 6.5Cr crowd, and to be clear it’s fringes of it. Most just say it’s a nice efficient little round and with that, I full heartedly agree. A .300 Win or .338 Lapua match, it isn’t in any capacity.
The ones that got me in this thread are, “It matches the .300 Win Mag,” or “…matches the .338 Lapua all the way out…”
That’s what I said earlier… I ran the numbers on 6.5Cm, 6.5PRC, 284Win, 280Rem and 270 in 140-147gr range factory Hornady ELD-X stuff this week as I’m looking for a “middle of the road” Cal as a backup. They’re all so close MV, Traj and Energy your really splitting hairs on any of them.
As stated multiple times, it’s not the be all and end all cartridge, it does alot of things well and is a decent all-rounder for most folks.. I’m still not on the bandwagon about it however.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I agree and will probably build one yet, it’s just not a .300 Win Mag substitute in any form. I guided both, and can confirm they don’t do the same thing on game, just as they don’t on the ballistic tables.
But efficient, light recoil, good barrel life, it certainly is. And I like it for that. Again just don’t try and compare it to a round that can throw a good 150, at 3400fps. This ignores the 190-230gr OTMs with BCs directly comparable to the 6.5 bullets.
But efficient, light recoil, good barrel life, it certainly is. And I like it for that. Again just don’t try and compare it to a round that can throw a good 150, at 3400fps. This ignores the 190-230gr OTMs with BCs directly comparable to the 6.5 bullets.
A little summary of mine from 2018
6.5 PRC - 338 Lapua
147 gr vs 250 gr
Factory hornady again.
PRC = 64.5% less recoil
PRC = 42.2% less bullet weight
PRC = same velocity 2910/2900
Close sd .301/.312
Impact velocities mirror all the way out.
The 6.5 has .697 bc, the 338 has .670 bc...so the 6.5 does better on wind and drop and that bullet will take elk all the way out.
So what do you suggest would compare closer to the 6.5 prc than that? It's basically a ballistic twin.
In 2018 when I ran that the 6.5 CM was the exact same relationship to the 300 win mag...all the way out, fraction of the recoil, usually higher bc for less wind drift and higher hit probability.
I didn't set out to slam the 30 cals, I set out to see how the new 6.5's stacked up against all the standards. The prc forced me to learn about the 338 lapua because it obliterated 300 win mag, the 6.5 cm is what ran with the 300 win mag. I compared to the 270's, the 7's etc. Because it's objective data that matters to me, I could care less what the headstamps said or energy they had aside from at the shoulder. Have some factory ammo choices come along to widen that gap since 2018? sure, but you still will get your closest comparisons against these cartridges, nothing else
Still can't abide by this thinking... the recoil reduction, the BC, the velocity are all there, and that's great. And speed kills. We all should know that... it's been around for years. The only thing is... there is still no replacement, for displacement. When you're chucking a heavier bullet the same speed as a lighter one... better things happen, and they happen faster.
You can't turn a 4 cylinder into a V8 no matter how hard you try... mod for mod, the V8 will always outperform. This is the same thing. No?
At the distances most guys shoot game at, these arguments are indeed useless. At 200 yards or so, pass something that is reasonably accurate, goes bang when it's supposed to, and has sufficient bullet weight and speed for the task at hand. The rest is really fluff.
R.
You can't turn a 4 cylinder into a V8 no matter how hard you try... mod for mod, the V8 will always outperform. This is the same thing. No?
At the distances most guys shoot game at, these arguments are indeed useless. At 200 yards or so, pass something that is reasonably accurate, goes bang when it's supposed to, and has sufficient bullet weight and speed for the task at hand. The rest is really fluff.
R.
There's no replacement for placement. And yes you can turn a 4 cylinder into a v8. I'm driving Chev's half ton with the big block 2.7l 4banger with a 57mm spin whistle, 310 hp, 430 ft/lbs torque, and boosted engines lose 0.05% power per 1000' elevation where naturally aspirated lose 3%...live in Calgary at 4000'. Do the math on that vs the 5.3 v8 355 hp and 383 ft/lbs torque...hint, I have 90 ft/lbs more torque peak at 1100 less rpm. Very cummins formula, and almost a year yanking my hunting/fishing trailer around from summer vacay, two fall hunt trips, and 10 weekends camping on the ice fishing with best bud running 5.3...I'll take this big block 4 banger all day long. Super quiet, similar economy doing same work but empty better economy, low stress highway driving as it runs quiet and low rpm. The 5.3 is a short stroke motor, the 2.7 has bigger jugs and is a long stroke motor...one is more a sports car engine vs one a real truck engine....that should get guys going lol. But it's true.
So anyway...back to the 21st century. That .301 sd 147 gr bullet will smash every elk and penetrate as deeply all the way out to wherever the impact velocity threshold for bullet performance ends pretty much identical to the 338 lapua and the argument of placement due to shoot ability plus higher bc for less wind drift means you're more likely to kill with the 6.5 prc with more shooters than the Lapua...dead is dead, all the extra fluff around giant bullet or ft/lbs is meaningless in this game, the negative effective of burning that much powder on the shooter far outweighs any benefit one might 'imagine' from the 250 gr pill.
Best learn about that 4 banger if you're a truck guy, no lifters, no warranty issues, gm mechanics when asked telling the one they work on the least is the 2.7, apparently gm engineers tried to kill the motor and it's one of 2 they couldn't, it's been out since 2019, after 3 years and lack of issues in real world they upped the tunes, and they knew when programmers crack codes etc. to build it stout so it can take way more than what it's doing now. Like the small blocks do with all the boost and standing up to double/triple power levels with stock internals etc. It's built just like any diesel, big time bottom end etc. Welcome to the 21st century small block, this will be a legendary engine. My 5.3 buddy is impressed, we took my rig to cold lake to catch lake trout for a long weekend and he's sold, he couldn't get over how quiet and comfy it was to cover miles with and laughs at hills with all that low torque. No emissions nightmares like the diesels have. It's 160 lbs lighter than 5.3 combo, simpler, one bang of big jugs, one turbo, the cat not easy to steal on it either as the turbo is attached to motor, cat right behind it, there's just a pipe coming down from the motor to the muffler. I could go on about other advantages but you start getting the point, boost if future, you literally do similar or more work with half the cylinders and it's more pleasant while making elevation and hills nothing burgers.
You gotta come in on both legs with a research guy.
You have to abide by this thinking because it's actually happening out there in the real world. 6.5's and boosted 4 bangers lol
And for giggles, the math on that 2.7 against the 6.2 on torque is at Calgary elevation I have 22 ft/lbs more torque than the big boy...it has 63 more horsies but it's also quite a bit heavier. At our elevation the closer comparison is not against the 5.3 but against the 6.2. Hard to imagine I know lol. I'll take the light front end and ultra simple boosted every single time. NA engines are dead to me after this experience. Always did love the cummins, drove a bunch of miles on the gen 1's. Same formula then, all the big block guys scoffed and the little inline turbo diesel...yet that thing could hitch up 4 horses with camper on and pull the hills with any big block. Same arguments from the same guys.
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Agree. - dan
There's no replacement for placement. And yes you can turn a 4 cylinder into a v8. I'm driving Chev's half ton with the big block 2.7l 4banger with a 57mm spin whistle, 310 hp, 430 ft/lbs torque, and boosted engines lose 0.05% power per 1000' elevation where naturally aspirated lose 3%...live in Calgary at 4000'. Do the math on that vs the 5.3 v8 355 hp and 383 ft/lbs torque...hint, I have 90 ft/lbs more torque peak at 1100 less rpm. Very cummins formula, and almost a year yanking my hunting/fishing trailer around from summer vacay, two fall hunt trips, and 10 weekends camping on the ice fishing with best bud running 5.3...I'll take this big block 4 banger all day long. Super quiet, similar economy doing same work but empty better economy, low stress highway driving as it runs quiet and low rpm. So anyway...back to the 21st century. That .301 sd 147 gr bullet will smash every elk and penetrate as deeply all the way out to wherever the impact velocity threshold for bullet performance ends pretty much identical to the 338 lapua and the argument of placement due to shoot ability plus higher bc for less wind drift means you're more likely to kill with the 6.5 prc with more shooters than the Lapua...dead is dead, all the extra fluff around giant bullet or ft/lbs is meaningless in this game, the negative effective of burning that much powder on the shooter far outweighs any benefit one might 'imagine' from the 250 gr pill.
Best learn about that 4 banger if you're a truck guy, no lifters, no warranty issues, gm mechanics when asked telling the one they work on the least is the 2.7, apparently gm engineers tried to kill the motor and it's one of 2 they couldn't, it's been out since 2019, after 3 years and lack of issues in real world they upped the tunes, and they knew when programmers crack codes etc. to build it stout so it can take way more than what it's doing now. Like the small blocks do with all the boost and standing up to double/triple power levels with stock internals etc. It's built just like any diesel, big time bottom end etc. Welcome to the 21st century small block, this will be a legendary engine. My 5.3 buddy is impressed, we took my rig to cold lake to catch lake trout for a long weekend and he's sold, he couldn't get over how quiet and comfy it was to cover miles with and laughs at hills with all that low torque. No emissions nightmares like the diesels have. It's 160 lbs lighter than 5.3 combo, simpler, one bang of big jugs, one turbo, the cat not easy to steal on it either as the turbo is attached to motor, cat right behind it, there's just a pipe coming down from the motor to the muffler. I could go on about other advantages but you start getting the point, boost if future, you literally do similar or more work with half the cylinders and it's more pleasant while making elevation and hills nothing burgers.
You gotta come in on both legs with a research guy.
You have to abide by this thinking because it's actually happening out there in the real world. 6.5's and boosted 4 bangers lol
And for giggles, the math on that 2.7 against the 6.2 on torque is at Calgary elevation I have 22 ft/lbs more torque than the big boy...it has 63 more horsies but it's also quite a bit heavier. At our elevation the closer comparison is not against the 5.3 but against the 6.2. Hard to imagine I know lol. I'll take the light front end and ultra simple boosted every single time. NA engines are dead to me after this experience. Always did love the cummins, drove a bunch of miles on the gen 1's. Same formula then, all the big block guys scoffed and the little inline turbo diesel...yet that thing could hitch up 4 horses with camper on and pull the hills with any big block. Same arguments from the same guys.
Yeah, hook it up to a 10,000 pound trailer, see how long it lasts. Look, we get it, you're a fan. But these BS claims don't hold up. - dan
Fella... Inhale.. take a breath... read what was written. If all of that same junk was bolted onto a V8, it would produce more power than the 4 banger... always will. That's what was said. Not going to start to fight with you. Not interested. Get where you're coming from.
Less is more... sure... until it isn't, because it can't be. Your half ton will never be a one ton diesel... just won't.
A 147 grain bullet won't be a 180, or a 190, or a 250, at the same speed.
Also... remember the 200 yard thing. For 90% of the market... this stuff is meaningless.
And... I don't don't really gotta come in on a damn thing... because I'm not trying to convince you anything! Lots of paths to take... take the best one for you. The result matters.
R.
Less is more... sure... until it isn't, because it can't be. Your half ton will never be a one ton diesel... just won't.
A 147 grain bullet won't be a 180, or a 190, or a 250, at the same speed.
Also... remember the 200 yard thing. For 90% of the market... this stuff is meaningless.
And... I don't don't really gotta come in on a damn thing... because I'm not trying to convince you anything! Lots of paths to take... take the best one for you. The result matters.
R.
Well it does have higher torque than the gen 1 cummins and nearly double the hp, but yes the truck itself, suspension, diffs, gearing is not 3/4-1 ton built. And you can't boost v-8's in half tons, because you then have super duty power levels with not strong enough driveline/suspension to handle it. You HAVE to go down to half displacement/cylinders once you boost, to fit the segment capable power levels.
Tow rating is 9000 lbs I think the 5.3 standard is similar maybe a few hundred lb higher and the 5.3 offers max tow packages that go higher. If you did that for the 2.7 it will be rated same. They are using the 2.7 as the base motor now, gone is the 4.3 v6. It's too bad they are currently treating it that way as highest trim level is LT, I'd personally be choked if I was a full load truck guy because of all the gm half ton engines and all the half ton engines going period there's nothing more appealing and data supporting at this point than the 2.7t 4banger from gm. It is the most cummins formula engine available period. And yes to the other poster, we will see how long it lasts, while the 5.3 is in getting it's 3rd set of lifter the 2.7 will be dragging the trailer all over the place. Jump on it's reliability while you can as it's only got 5 years of evidence on it so far but it's a stud already. They have a torture tested one stripped apart at the new Colorado launch for all to put hands on all the parts etc. it's just getting warmed up, it will be another gm legendary motor, already is for those early in the info game but by the time you too see that (like the big block guys vs the cummins guys) you'll have missed out on driving awesomeness while clinging to the fud thoughts lol. This 4 banger is built same as the 3.0 duramax...good luck thinking it can't or won't outlast the 5.3 v8. This isn't a naturally aspirated honda light duty 4 cylinder with a turbo bolted on after fact. They built the engine around this particular turbo fyi, dual volute Borge Warner...an amazing piece of equipment, minimal lag design, super efficient, so before opening mouth on subject not familiar with best learn about the 2.7 development etc. before making assumptions, it was built from ground up as a truck motor around that very specific turbo.
Agree, a Grendel and almost every other cartridge can get it done very well inside 400 yards where 99.9% of game is taken.
Yes that 147 gr bullet, of similar construction, will better all the 150-180 gr 30 call bullets in every aspect, you need to go to 200 grains in 30 cal to penetrate as deeply for same construction.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Blakey, unfortunately your responses run at such length it gets tiresome and few of us have the time to read all that. The actual nuts and bolts of this are remarkably simple, will or won’t a 6.5 Creedmoor do the same thing as a .300 Mag (or “match” it if you will). It won’t, nor should it be expected to, you’re pitting Mayweather against Tyson.
In half dozen sentences or less, show me a 6.5Cr load than beats the 150gr GMX at 3400fps load to 500 yards for trajectory. We’ll even leave energy out which is already making this unrealistic. Quite simply, there isn’t one, and 500 yards and in is all hunting, for anything we do here.
In half dozen sentences or less, show me a 6.5Cr load than beats the 150gr GMX at 3400fps load to 500 yards for trajectory. We’ll even leave energy out which is already making this unrealistic. Quite simply, there isn’t one, and 500 yards and in is all hunting, for anything we do here.
I know you're limiting this to trajectory but just have to say...not to you Ardent but in response to this whole thing.
There's no comparison between 6.5mm CM and 300 WM internal damage using like bullets. A bigger bullet opening wider and with more force creates more tissue damage apart from just the hole they cavitate through physical contact. Bullets are not arrows, they don't just cork a hole like a blade.
The destroyed lung, blood clot and bone fragmentation tells you that much. Look at the amount of bloodshot meat on the side of or inside of an animal, that comes from speed and energy. Even the 100gr 6.5mm TTSX bullet is downright scary. A bigger, heavier bullet going as fast or faster is much scarier.
Does it always drop an animal faster? Perhaps not...but it sure never hurts.
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Yeah I'm wordy, got something better to do?
I'm not wrong though.
You have to go to 6mm Creedmoor with 80gr ttsx or gmx to match your niche end of spectrum overbore lightweight mono example. You'll get similar velocity, slightly more bc/sd with the 300 win mag in this example and all reloaded, don't see either in factory load currently advertised in comparable format...either regular or superformance. The 6.5's are unusually heavy for cal bullets for most part so you chose a cherry pick look that the 6.5 doesn't do well with. Hornady page says superformance powder at 48 grains will drive that 80 gr gmx at 3400 fps. Not bad...how many grains of powder and recoil pushing the 155? lmfao, ok, 300 win mag wins this one...but not by much, and certainly not for the recoil punishment, but it does win as the bc/sd make it a little better big game bullet choice than the 80
Now lets look at the 6.5 CM 140 gr eld-m factory 2710 fps vs 300 win mag 150 gr whitetail load from hornady at 3275 fps, more apples to apples yeah? The off the shelf base white box loads. 300 win mag 1800 fps impact is at 655 yards, the 6.5 cm 1800 fps impact is at 815 yards...with a way higher SD and way less wind drift all the way out, deeper penetration bullet for same impact velocities and much higher hit probability due to lack of wind drift. 1000 yard drop on the 300 win mag is 283" and the 6.5 is 280". Don't you find that interesting you have to step up to the 300 win mag to start comparing to the 6.5 CM? You need to get into the 190 gr stuff in 300 win mag to start beating on the 6.5 CM. And considering the recoil and powder charge differences that's pretty amazing, the 308 gets killed by the CM.
We already agreed almost everything works to 400. Some guys like that rangefinder optional Weatherby overbore least efficient formula for hunting, you just have to put up with shortest barrel life, not much practice work, ton of recoil, and noise/blast the entire township gets to enjoy. Not a bad 20th century option for just hunting.
Moving back into the 21st century we get to dial in a ton of bc and sd for maximum efficiency, start bullets slower because they retain their velocity all the way out and walk past everything the 20th century was doing in no time. Keep your shoulder, don't let the township know what you're doing, practice a lot (with whole family), and work hard to replace barrel, higher hit probability and deeper penetrations...you get the idea. Most people prefer, and do better, with efficiency...the animals hate it.
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Yeah I'm wordy, got something better to do?
Moving back into the 21st century we get to dial in a ton of bc and sd for maximum efficiency, start bullets slower because they retain their velocity all the way out and walk past everything the 20th century was doing in no time. Keep your shoulder, don't let the township know what you're doing, practice a lot (with whole family), and work hard to replace barrel, higher hit probability and deeper penetrations...you get the idea.
When barrel life gets factored into the equation, I think I lean toward 308 Win for doing all of the above.
But then, I'm generally never shooting past 300 meters. Hunting quite a bit within that, and shooting 400-500 meters once in a while for fun.
I know you've got some shots making meat out there lol.
This year its two 6.5mm loads. One is a 140gr EXC at a very pedestrian speed to not tear whitetail up too badly within 150 yards. I really wonder how much animal that can go through though lol. Really don't feel like downloading 308 Win to do same.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Apples to Apples, using your own 1800fps bullet cutoff Blakey. And check those 1000 yard figures on the bottom line for drop, drift, velocity, energy…
Removing the humans from the comparison load choice, the lightest loads in the Ballistic app load library vs the heaviest, in both 6.5 Cr and .300 Win.
These cartridges are a small ocean apart in performance, completely ignoring the energy which the .300 literally doubles (check equivalent ranges, and energy). There unfortunately is no world a 6.5 Creed equals a .300 Win, said as an admirer of both.
You’ve made some great posts and analogies on ballistics, but saying the 6.5 matches a .300 all the way out is a misstep. Now a .308, that it is very close with and can even get the knod far out by a little bit.
And check those 1000 yard figures on the bottom line for drop, drift, velocity, energy… Removing the humans from the comparison load choice, the lightest loads in the Ballistic app load library vs the heaviest, in both 6.5 Cr and .300 Win.
These cartridges are a small ocean apart in performance, completely ignoring the energy which the .300 literally doubles (check equivalent ranges, and energy). There unfortunately is no world a 6.5 Creed equals a .300 Win, said as an admirer of both.
You’ve made some great posts and analogies on ballistics, but saying the 6.5 matches a .300 all the way out is a misstep. Now a .308, that it is very close with and can even get the knod far out by a little bit.
