.35 caliber Bear Defense Gun

I'm all for keeping it simple. Hard hitting bolt action, pump shotgun would be my first choices.

I like and hunt with levers so I could be easily persuaded to go with a .44 Mag especially when I'm jonesing for a '92. Just not sure if I could live with it sinking to the bottom of a river. :p

But kidding aside I find for a novice or non shooter a bolt action is easier to understand and use.
 
A fast follow-on shot with a bolt for a non-shooter is not a likely event in my experience. Your mileage may vary. I shot milsurp target competitions for many years with the fastest bolt action out there, the Lee Enfield. I had to practise and practise and practise to be able to shoot well in the snap-shooting stages. Even a fast bolt is simply NOT FAST unless you practise like hell. And if a non-shooter does cycle it quickly, he/she will likely not aim well at the same time.

The bolt gun exception MIGHT be the Ross Rifle, which again, requires a lot of practise to operate properly and safely. That said, I would fear no bear on earth carrying my .280 Ross. Loaded to spec, it will blow clear through a grizzly bear from stem to stern at nearly 3000fps with solids. It's not very handy though with its long factory barrel and is not my "first choice".

Levers, pumps and break-action double barrels all cycle much more readily from the shoulder without taking your gun off target.

As I said, for defence, I would carry my 16" trapper .44 mag and not think twice about it. I'd be shooting inside 15 yards too.
 
There seems to be some misunderstanding by at least one poster that I expected to meet a black bear, grizzly bear and polar bear all on one canoe trip. Not likely as as far as I know grizzes are extinct here in MB. But polar bears sure - they're an extreme hazard in Churchill and its conceivable that you would have to defend yourself from one if canoeing or backpacking in Northern Manitoba.

And one post did mention grizzlys here in MB so you never know. Conservation MB used to deny the existence of cougars here. (not the Palimino kind)

Barren land grizzlies have been spotted and photographed near Churchill, and both to the northwest and to the southeast by numerous people, which sort of ends the speculation. Encountering them them while unlikely cannot be discounted.

Its for when you are on your own or in a small group and the sh*t hits the fan when you are least expecting it. Like when you are carrying a canoe on your shoulders while portaging. You might not even see the bear. That's why the reference to a non shooter. The non shooter might have the firearm and be the one to have to use it. This is the reason for the emphasis on dependability and simplicity. I want something that a non shooter could understand and use after a few demonstrations. That may or may not include range time - in an ideal world it would. But probably wouldn't as we all live busy lives, and a non shooter unless highly motivated probably isn't interested in going to the range.

At best it might be a few practice rounds on the trail or shoreline.

There is nothing simple about dealing with a dangerous bear encounter. If you intend to take a companion with you, intending to have them fire a few shots on the trail or along the shoreline isn't doing them any favors. They should become competent marksmen prior to leaving, and there is plenty of time to accomplish that. In a dangerous bear situation, your breath will be short, your hands and legs will shake, you'll have tunnel vision, your fine motor skills will take a dump, and you won't shoot as well as you did on the range. I don't understand why you would put anyone in that situation without first ensuring a basic level of competence with a rifle. Even better get them out hunting so that they understand what happens when a large animal is hit by gunfire. I encourage you to take a couple of cracker shell pistols, and train up on those too. They are usually effective although as Pounder describes, there are exceptions. The trick is to use them in places where you won't start fires, and taking care not to shoot beyond the bear and scare it towards you.

A cracker shell passes over a bear's back and explodes behind it chasing him the wrong way . . .



Shotguns are good, I hadn't thought of that. So are the pump rifles. My gut says stay away from autoloaders and even levers (that hurts as I'm a lever guy when hunting). If you must know my tendency would be a short bolt action. There were a number of good recommendations in this respect:

Remington 700s, Model 7s, Ruger 77s, Mauser 98 action...; calibers: .35 Whelen, .358 Win, .350 RM, .35 Rem...

As for price range... well again I didn't specify one but its safe to assume I'm not going out with a Cape gun or granddad's antique Winchester '95. No exotics or custom guns, no modern mag fed military with an Elcan or Eotech -

...something that if it falls into the river when you flip your canoe or bash against the rocks, or that non shooter drops - you either pick it up, clean it off and it still works; or if its a write off, you don't find yourself out of pocket thousands of $$$.

BTW I already hunt with a .358 BLR so that had something to do with the caliber choice. :)

Thanks to all who posted.

On an extended trip, shotguns although versatile aren't the best choice. The barrels and magazines tend to be thin and are easily dented, rendering them inoperable. Shotgun shells when exposed to the elements for extended periods of time tarnish and corrode, which can effect how they cycle through the gun. Shotgun shells are also bulky and heavy, so they take up more room than rifle cartridges do, and you can carry far fewer for the same weight.

An auto loader shouldn't be discounted out of hand. Since the 19th Century machinery has been performing repetitive tasks more quickly and more accurately than can be performed by a human being, firearm actions are no different. The real advantage of the semi auto has, is not its rate of fire, its that multiple shots can be fired without breaking the firing grip, without lifting your face off the stock, and with no chance of short stroking the action under stress. You might be afraid, but your BAR isn't. I like big rifles, but not everyone does, having said that I think a .30/06 is a prudent minimum for bear work. If you want more, a 9.3X62 is an intelligent step up, but buy lots of ammo, because you won't find it everywhere. Once we get into the big case magnums and the .45/70, you are better off to use handloads, as purchasing ammunition is sufficient quantity to become competent is financially intimidating.

Which ever rifle or shotgun you purchase, the chances are it will need to have something done to it by a competent gunsmith before its appropriate to use. You might need to adjust the length of pull, you might need to change the sights, or the gun might need some trigger work, or action polishing to improve cycling. Be sure your your rifle cycles the ammunition you intend to use, that is a surprise you don't need.
 
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Can also go with an handi rifle. Nice and cheap, short length,easy to use and (with a real cartridge ie 45-70) will stop a polar bear in its tracks. Or get a rossi ranch hand. Maybe a defender 12ga?
 
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Boomer, Claven I hear what your saying about practicing to at least be familiar and somewhat competent with a firearm - but its not always possible if the novice or non shooter chooses not to.

People go out into the wilderness, often unprepared, and sometimes suffer tragic consequences. There's a search on right now for a young man lost in a provincial park here in MB. A senior from Winnipeg was found dead in Northern Ontario two or three weeks ago. Hunters found his truck on a trail, he was found later a ways from it. Don't know all the circumstances.

In terms of attacks people have been killed by bears most recently in Yukon to coyotes in New Brunswick. (If I recall correctly the person who discovered the young woman killed by yotes scared them off somehow and called for help on his cell, but he said that he wished he had a gun.) I remember a fellow reporting how he was chased by a wolf while on his mountain bike - it lunged at him; he escaped when a SUV came down the road. One of my hunting buddies told me how a wolf watched him while he was setting up his ground blind. I've decided to move on to a different area when I came across a pack's worth of wolf tracks near my spot during deer season.

You join a outdoors group, go on a extended canoe trip - the leaders talk about not keeping food in your tent (people still do), show you how a bear can peel open one of those metal containers the province sets up for hikers and hangs the provisions from a tree. But you're the one that gets the looks if you bring up taking along a firearm for bear defense.

Everyone has their own idea of what being prepared means when in the bush. A couple of my hunting buddies even teased me about bringing along a small survival kit last year when hunting. They don't see the need.

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Added: I also like the idea of a bolt action rifle for its easy of cleaning in the field with a minimum of tools, etc. I'm not familiar with pumps other than shotguns and have had a jam with one when I short stroked it. It was not that easy to clear.
 
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Another instance where a warning shot worked...


If you're going to fire a warning shot, make sure you have room/time to reload, in case the bear doesn't take the hint.
 
http://www.tradeexcanada.com/content/zastava-commercial-m98-m70-stainless-synthetic-93x62-1

Mercury recoil reducer, better sights, shorten the barrel a bit, slicken the action and trigger... Should be out the door with a few boxes of ammo for about the cost of a nice Sako in .375 H&H

.....I have a few old .303's here that would be perfect for what you say you need it for, lots of power for stopping a bear, about as reliable as an hour glass, anyone can shoot it, doubles as a canoe paddle just in case and can be found for $100.
 
A fast follow-on shot with a bolt for a non-shooter is not a likely event in my experience. Your mileage may vary. I shot milsurp target competitions for many years with the fastest bolt action out there, the Lee Enfield. I had to practise and practise and practise to be able to shoot well in the snap-shooting stages. Even a fast bolt is simply NOT FAST unless you practise like hell. And if a non-shooter does cycle it quickly, he/she will likely not aim well at the same time.

The bolt gun exception MIGHT be the Ross Rifle, which again, requires a lot of practise to operate properly and safely. That said, I would fear no bear on earth carrying my .280 Ross. Loaded to spec, it will blow clear through a grizzly bear from stem to stern at nearly 3000fps with solids. It's not very handy though with its long factory barrel and is not my "first choice".

Levers, pumps and break-action double barrels all cycle much more readily from the shoulder without taking your gun off target.

As I said, for defence, I would carry my 16" trapper .44 mag and not think twice about it. I'd be shooting inside 15 yards too.
how fast do you need to be?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ob0fgc0I7A

If the target is charging straight on versus having to pan over to your next target and then lead it, a quality bolt action can be even faster than the video.

For a non shooter to operate any type of rifle quickly in a panic situation is asking a lot and the simplest being a semi auto where there is just a safety switch and trigger pull to worry about.
 
This guy showed up at the house yesterday, he pounded on the house, he would not let me out of the house, would not run from the dog or bear bangers. I did not want to kill him , so we have bear police here. They were called and came and drugged him and took him off to jail. It turned out he is a 23 year old male ( we knew it was a he ) with no other encounters with people other than when he was tagged in 93 as a 2 year old. He is old and probably will not survive the winter he is only 505 lbs. in his prime he would be over 1000 lbs. Glad I did not shoot him.
stay safe
pounder

I hope the old guy makes it through the winter OK. Thanks for not shooting him pounder.
 
I hope the old guy makes it through the winter OK. Thanks for not shooting him pounder.

Kinda think if he isn't gonna make the winter perhaps a quick clean death before the snow falls might have actually a better route. We sometimes make that decision with our horses if we think the winter will be to much for them. Just a thought.
 
While my grandad's Model 141 in .35 Remington is my favourite rifle, a single round of 000 buckshot contains what, like 8 .35 caliber pellets.
So the bear defense gun is a shotgun loaded with 000.
 
There is a velocity and weight difference between a shotgun pellet and a rifle round, though shotguns can also work well for bear defence.
 
While my grandad's Model 141 in .35 Remington is my favourite rifle, a single round of 000 buckshot contains what, like 8 .35 caliber pellets.
So the bear defense gun is a shotgun loaded with 000.

Its my opinion that the use of buckshot in the bear defense roll fills a very specific niche. That niche is where the over penetration of a rifle bullet or a shotgun slug endangers other people as would be the case in a town or crowded camp ground. Even if a buckshot pellet passes though, it unlikely to be lethal beyond the bear, as individual pellets are so light, and have such a low BC, that they rapidly loose their velocity after impact. If you are close enough to the bear that you must shoot him to survive, the buckshot pattern will be tight enough that you will have to shoot with rifle precision anyway, so any theoretical advantage of a pattern making up for lapses in marksmanship doesn't hold up. Load your shotgun with slugs, Benneke style slugs if you can get them, Challengers if not. If you do have to shoot in a dangerous bear scenario, you want all the penetration you can get out of your shotgun.
 
Kinda think if he isn't gonna make the winter perhaps a quick clean death before the snow falls might have actually a better route. We sometimes make that decision with our horses if we think the winter will be to much for them. Just a thought.

I'm just hoping he lucks into a nice, big walrus carcass he can feed on for a long time.
 
The old guy still has some fight in him. What we did not get pics of was the pounding on the house and the jaw popping and hissing that he was doing when I was trying to move him away from the door. I chose not to shoot him as I was not really in fear for my safety. If he had got paws or head into the house it would have been different.

pounder
 
The old guy still has some fight in him. What we did not get pics of was the pounding on the house and the jaw popping and hissing that he was doing when I was trying to move him away from the door. I chose not to shoot him as I was not really in fear for my safety. If he had got paws or head into the house it would have been different.

pounder

Regardless of his present condition that must be a pretty ripe old age for a Polar Bear to live given the obstacles / enemies he might have encountered over those years...
 
There were bears in the air yesterday, so I expect your old boy woke up at Seal river or Long Point, or were ever they get dropped off these days. Hopefully he finds a whale carcass or some seals that aren't paying attention. If the global warming crew sees him, he'll be the poster boy for the climatic demise of polar bears, while they ignore the healthy big bears, that are easier to find.
 
And yet most bear defense experts recommend 12 ga pumps. As for follow up shots being unworthy of consideration, I carried single shot guns for a few years, and was reasonably comfortable with them, but I'm much more comfortable with a repeater. Although my experience suggests that bears don't respond particularly well when someone attempts to drive them off with live fire, you might be tempted to try, but with a single shot, your only shot must be a killing shot. If your shot misses, or knocks the bear down, but doesn't ice him, a fast followup might be viewed more favorably. Regardless of how the OP chooses to arm himself, if he purchases his rifle now, by next summer, he should have mastered practical marksmanship, and gun handling under stress.

As for the amount of time one has on a charging animal, I ran this drill prior to going to Africa, and got much better at it by the time I went then I was in this video. The rifle is my custom Brno 602 in .375 Ultra with a 100 grs of H-4831 under a 270 gr Hornady . . .
click on the thumbnail

I think that Ike, Camp Cook and Dogleg were the winners of the Dangerous Game Match we had ages ago.

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/125156-Dangerous-game-short-range-match-The-challenge-is-on!?highlight=dangerous+game
 
I think that Ike, Camp Cook and Dogleg were the winners of the Dangerous Game Match we had ages ago.

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/125156-Dangerous-game-short-range-match-The-challenge-is-on!?highlight=dangerous+game

I believe you're correct, Cam is a talented rifleman. But if I can make a small observation without sounding like I'm whining, when you guys held that competition it was still -35 here, so my outdoor wear seriously impacted my performance. Having said that, had it been held in July, I'm confident the standings would have been unchanged.
 
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