35 Whelen AI ???
- Thread starter Charlie38
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I have had two 338 Win Mags and two 375 H&H Mags and have stepped "down" to the Whelen. I think it is a better cartridge for North America and with the proper scope, rangefinder and practice it shoots flat enough for anything. I have a Leupold 3x9x40 VXII with the LR recital on it and have had NO problem hitting out to 440 yds with it. Its not as far off a 338 as some would have you believe. If I had only one gun this would be it !
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Methinks someone has an axe to grind - or perhaps someone is simply happy just knowing so much that isn't so.Also it's quite common that 338Win fans often feel threatened when the 35 Whelen is close on their heels. A basic insecurity I think.
Not at all. I really like the 35 Whelen and 338-06 and think that they are very good at what they are. It is a real push for the 9.3x62 to get 2600fps with a 250gr bullet, and I find it hilarious that 35 cal fans think that there is some inherent magic in the caliber that allows it to defeat the laws of ballistics. If you can post some credible load data that was created with a peizo tester that says you can put a 250gr pill out of a 35 Whelen with a 24" barrel I'll recant my position. Until then, this horse has been beaten dead by men with that equipment and they came to the conclusion that 2550fps was the maximum with a 24" barrel.
But like I said, don't let me tell you Santa doesn't exist ok?
You yourself should first present some actual facts - since you are the one making the absolute and categorical claims that any velocity over 2550MV with a 250 must needs be over 60000psi with a 35 Whelen AI - and say only crazys go there. You quote hearsay - "they" and "them" with pressure gauges who know all these things in support of these infallible rules and facts to which you refer.
But just the same, for fun I'll play along - have a look at this from Alliant's load manual - a 250 at 2550 at 48400 CUP - somewhere around 55000 psi territory using a 24" barrel and a STANDARD CHAMBER. Maybe not credible to you since it flys in the face of what your trying to say here. Probably it's the proverbial "exception" to the rule eh?
Ok, where is your data? I searched loaddata.com and that shows all of the 35 Whelen data available from manufacturers, and it has no maximum loads over 2550fps with a 250. That covers every loading manual within reason (including Alliant) and oodles of personal loads. But go ahead and add the 1% you gain by "improving" that case. So you get 2580. Sorry, I'll add the magic 100fps you "have" to get when you "ackley-fy" any cartridge.
So explain: I should be able to match 358 Norma Velocities with my 338 WM and 24" barrels and 250's all things being equal?
The science doesn't work. .358 is a great caliber, but it isn't magic.
Case capacity and bore size restrict what we can do, the same as gravity. Like I said: I like the Whelen, I just know that it isn't magical.
As for hearsay, look up some of John Barsness' work, as some one else on here has quoted also. Science works and has been proven in this case.
I wouldn't be talking about it if I wasn't well read on it with experience in applying it all.
Show me Santa and I'll believe in Rudolph.
So explain: I should be able to match 358 Norma Velocities with my 338 WM and 24" barrels and 250's all things being equal?
The science doesn't work. .358 is a great caliber, but it isn't magic.
Case capacity and bore size restrict what we can do, the same as gravity. Like I said: I like the Whelen, I just know that it isn't magical.
As for hearsay, look up some of John Barsness' work, as some one else on here has quoted also. Science works and has been proven in this case.
I wouldn't be talking about it if I wasn't well read on it with experience in applying it all.
Show me Santa and I'll believe in Rudolph.
.. If you are hugging 2550fps with a 24"bbl 35 Whelen AI, reality says you are at 60000psi-ish and you should likely stop. But who is reality to step in the way of magic, huh?
Why is it alway 35 Whelen fans that want to shove Tinkerbell in a case to make it a .338
You have already been proven wrong - why not either admit it or go away? The 35 Whelen (not the AI) can do 2550 at well under 60K psi as shown directly above your post from the Alliant site. The 35 Whelen AI could do the same at a lower pressure or about 2600 fps at the same pressure. With RL17, the 35 Whelen can go a bit faster yet (2600 fps) at even lower pressures, albeit with 10% more powder. No magic, just chemistry.
Those are pretty much the numbers I see from my rifles, within a few fps in either direction anyway. I also load for two 338 Win mags, one will barely safely crack 2700 fps with 250 gr bullets, the other will give me an extra 50-60 fps with the same loads, both from 24" barrels. There is enough variety in just the barrel friction alone to account for the difference, no magic here at all. My 340 Wby will give me 2940 fps, 26" RKS gain twist barrel on it, with the 250 gr bullets, which is only about 40 fps slower then my 338 Lapua (also a 26" barrel, Sako this time). The one thing I've learned in all these years (30+) of reloading for rifles (and handguns) is that everything is simply a generality. The data in the books, while an important guideline, is not specific to your rifle, with your components, etc. FWIW - dan
Sorry, I can't see any Alliant data posted. Nor do I know anything about RL17 other than a few people saying they have found good things in the accuracyh and MV and ED dept. With it.
I can't say there has been any reason for my opinion to change on the subject.
The 35 Whelen AI is a dumb idea. The improvment is so minimal, as someone already stated, difference in barrels can has more of an affect in velocity gain (or loss).
And from what I have seen so far, and from what the science behind the sport tells us, 2550ish is the threshhold for the bore to case capacity. Its your brass and guns, have fun.
Do you mean that Alliant's recipe doesn't appear on your screen? I printed this recipe from their website a few years ago and scanned it yesterday just for you to view - here's the link - click here -> http://35cal.com/images/Alliant_35whelen_loads.jpg
Alliant seems to have reassessed their max loads for the Whelen using 250 gr bullets . They now list 54 grs of RL15 as a max load. They also use a 22" barrel rather than a 24". It seems they are regurgitating data from the Speer manuals.
I agree that rechambering a good shooting Whelen to the AI version appears to be a waste of time if a significant performance gain is the objective. Building a AI from scratch? well, whatever floats your boat
As for my own experience with the Whelen, I've loaded for one for about 12 years using 225 and 250 gr bullets. Initially I went for the maximum velocities and was able to achieve +/-2800 fps with 225's and 2675 fps with 250's(all with RL15). I never went over book max loads but brass life was short so pressures where up there.
Nowadays, my max loads with RL15 are 58-59 gr with 225's and 57-58 with 250's. Velocities are still 2700-2725 fps and 2600-2625 fps respectively. BTW, my barrel is a 23" Douglas.
I've got some RL17 on order and might try it in the Whelen but mainly it will be tried in my 9.3X62 and my .375 Ruger.
I agree that rechambering a good shooting Whelen to the AI version appears to be a waste of time if a significant performance gain is the objective. Building a AI from scratch? well, whatever floats your boat
As for my own experience with the Whelen, I've loaded for one for about 12 years using 225 and 250 gr bullets. Initially I went for the maximum velocities and was able to achieve +/-2800 fps with 225's and 2675 fps with 250's(all with RL15). I never went over book max loads but brass life was short so pressures where up there.
Nowadays, my max loads with RL15 are 58-59 gr with 225's and 57-58 with 250's. Velocities are still 2700-2725 fps and 2600-2625 fps respectively. BTW, my barrel is a 23" Douglas.
I've got some RL17 on order and might try it in the Whelen but mainly it will be tried in my 9.3X62 and my .375 Ruger.
That is precisely what I meant. It is a problem when you are using a mobile browser.
I asked a friend to read my posts, and let me know if I am coming off wrong here. It seems that I seem quite aggressive in printed word, and for that I apologize.
I don't know if you are familiar with loaddata .com, but if you aren't you should be. You will never need another reloading manual ever if you sign up. Any recent load manual worth mention, plus a ton of privately developed data for a bizillion (if you don't know what a bizillion is, wait a year and the american debt will be there) cartridges is available at a click. No data on that site with the exception of some fairly old stuff comes much past the 2500 mark for the Whelen. And the physics behind ballistics backs that up. And the cartridge is not "improvement" friendly from a performance stand point.
I think that 250gr bullets at 2500fps plow a big hole and I would hunt anything with it. Or a 225gr Accubond at 2700fps for that matter.
For the record that Alliant data is old, and they don't have that anywhere in their new stuff. I would be interested in seeing data for the Whelen with RL17 if someone has some. I am thinking about a 338-06 (I know, it's the Nemesis!) and it could help me decide.
You are a slippery one rem338win and cognitive dissonance runs deep with you.
Just show me credible data - so I do - oops can't see it - GAWD that's frustrating when I take the time to do that. But you can see it well enough only to knock it - it's too old - what's next?
Any load data given here for ReL17 won't meet your approval anyway. A few of us here have already started testing it in the 35Whelen with 250s - but I won't be clouding the issue here with the promising results of that. It'll just give your prejudices a chance to flourish all the more.
And - oh ya - the 35 AI is not a "dumb idea". The improvements - yes improvements - are just not enough to appeal to some - but hardly "dumb".
Just show me credible data - so I do - oops can't see it - GAWD that's frustrating when I take the time to do that. But you can see it well enough only to knock it - it's too old - what's next?
A few years old - so what - they list the load at 48,400CUP and it stood for many years. It's either true or bogus. But most would consider Alliant a credible source. Does not that give you pause? The newer Alliant data seems significantly reduced and no one knows why that I'm aware of. Furthermore it has no pressure listings anyway - which is what this discussion has been about - pressure/velocity claims. So the new data is USELESS if you want to know what the actual operating pressures are. It's newer but it may all be well under potential.
Any load data given here for ReL17 won't meet your approval anyway. A few of us here have already started testing it in the 35Whelen with 250s - but I won't be clouding the issue here with the promising results of that. It'll just give your prejudices a chance to flourish all the more.
And - oh ya - the 35 AI is not a "dumb idea". The improvements - yes improvements - are just not enough to appeal to some - but hardly "dumb".
If your going to call me a liar, use simple words so as not to cloud the issue.
I do have a computer that allowed me to see the items, so all wasn't lost. My original post where from my Blackberry; images are limited so sorry.
if you talk to Alliant the load in question is quite old, which is why it was still in CUP. And 1 load with a powder stating that velocity versus 10+ loads with the same powder no where near that isn't credible. I can't get a contract in the NBA shooting freethrows with an average like that.
Powders change, so does their data.
Anyway, I would be interested to hear about the RL17 data. I have friends that are reasonable people that have found it quite extraordinary.
And as for improvements, I still stand on the dumb remark. The performance gained by blowing out a case for 4% more capacity doesn't speak. Brass life and "neat" factor aside, it is pointless. Brass life should be fine with a 35 Whelen at normal velocities anyway, so again, no point.
As for being slippery, I have had to spend time around lawyers, and when you rub shoulders with bottomfeeders, a little sloime rubs off.
This was fun, but I am stubborn, and your a Whelen roadie, so we likely should agree to disagree.
But if you are right-I can't wait to get 2900fps out of 250's in a 338 WM AI
I seem to be in violent agreement with just about everyone here:
- I agree that the 35 Whelen AI offers a very small improvement over the 35 Whelen, but some guys are willing to do it;
- I agree that the 4-1 "rule" is a good sanity check, but hardly anyone respects it;
- I agree that there are many variables that determine the MV a shooter will get (his barrel, his chamber, powder lots, chrony variatiions and location, etc.)
- I agree that 2550 fps (or so) with a 250gr from RL-15 is still a safe load. I guess Alliant has gotten cheap and is just using Speer's data now?
- I agree that the 35 Whelen ain't no 338 WM and never can be
But so what? Must we fight?
- I agree that the 35 Whelen AI offers a very small improvement over the 35 Whelen, but some guys are willing to do it;
- I agree that the 4-1 "rule" is a good sanity check, but hardly anyone respects it;
- I agree that there are many variables that determine the MV a shooter will get (his barrel, his chamber, powder lots, chrony variatiions and location, etc.)
- I agree that 2550 fps (or so) with a 250gr from RL-15 is still a safe load. I guess Alliant has gotten cheap and is just using Speer's data now?
- I agree that the 35 Whelen ain't no 338 WM and never can be
But so what? Must we fight?
From my experience with a standard .35 Whelen, Alliant used to recommend a maximum of 59.5 grains of Reloder 15. I shot a lot of that powder through my rifle and got the 2550fps that they said I would. Pressures were apparently fine in summer and accuracy was excellent. Then they changed their data. I trusted my own experience enough that I kept on doing what I had been.
Along the way I did start a thread on 24hourcampfire.com about the change in .35 Whelen data with R-15. It can be found here:
24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2513143/1
It was quite a good discussion that people here might enjoy.
Along the way I did start a thread on 24hourcampfire.com about the change in .35 Whelen data with R-15. It can be found here:
24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2513143/1
It was quite a good discussion that people here might enjoy.
An interesting thread - thanks for sharing.
As for their reasons for knocking back the RL-15 loads, it's anybody's guess. I doubt that Alliant will be sharing the real reasons, and I doubt that the recipe has been changed to a faster powder. Possibly they have just made a business arrangement with Speer.
59.5 grs of RL-15 over a 250gr bullet in the 35 Whelen has been a load used by hundreds of shooters (myself included) for probably hundreds of thousands of rounds. No reports of problems of any kind. I'll continue to use it.
As for their reasons for knocking back the RL-15 loads, it's anybody's guess. I doubt that Alliant will be sharing the real reasons, and I doubt that the recipe has been changed to a faster powder. Possibly they have just made a business arrangement with Speer.
59.5 grs of RL-15 over a 250gr bullet in the 35 Whelen has been a load used by hundreds of shooters (myself included) for probably hundreds of thousands of rounds. No reports of problems of any kind. I'll continue to use it.
Good read Chuck. I pretty much violently agree back there Andy. The older (don't ask me how old, I don't know) RL15, before they started making it "more temperature insensitive", was slower than it is now. Apparently whatever they did to it to make it insensitive sped it up a bit. Kinda like the H4831 I have versus the new stuff (sc). The understanding would be, start with a starting load and increase until the chrony starts reading in the 2500fps area, and who cares what the max is. Like Andy said, rifles have variables, but pressures are pretty consistent at producing speed.
An example would be my 338. I needed 72gr of H4350 with 210gr TSX's to get 2950fps out of it, but only 69.5gr of the same powder with the 210gr Scirroco to get the same fps.
That would be why accuracy junkies buy components from the same lot, to gain consistency.
agree back there Andy. The older (don't ask me how old, I don't know) RL15, before they started making it "more temperature insensitive", was slower than it is now. Apparently whatever they did to it to make it insensitive sped it up a bit. Kinda like the H4831 I have versus the new stuff (sc). The understanding would be, start with a starting load and increase until the chrony starts reading in the 2500fps area, and who cares what the max is. Like Andy said, rifles have variables, but pressures are pretty consistent at producing speed. An example would be my 338. I needed 72gr of H4350 with 210gr TSX's to get 2950fps out of it, but only 69.5gr of the same powder with the 210gr Scirroco to get the same fps.
That would be why accuracy junkies buy components from the same lot, to gain consistency.
Good read Chuck. I pretty much violently agree back there Andy. The older (don't ask me how old, I don't know) RL15, before they started making it "more temperature insensitive", was slower than it is now. Apparently whatever they did to it to make it insensitive sped it up a bit. Kinda like the H4831 I have versus the new stuff (sc). The understanding would be, start with a starting load and increase until the chrony starts reading in the 2500fps area, and who cares what the max is. Like Andy said, rifles have variables, but pressures are pretty consistent at producing speed.
An example would be my 338. I needed 72gr of H4350 with 210gr TSX's to get 2950fps out of it, but only 69.5gr of the same powder with the 210gr Scirroco to get the same fps.
That would be why accuracy junkies buy components from the same lot, to gain consistency.
Oh, and I believe that CCI, Federal, Speer, Alliant, etc are all owned by ATK now right? So they would be bedfellows.
agree back there Andy. The older (don't ask me how old, I don't know) RL15, before they started making it "more temperature insensitive", was slower than it is now. Apparently whatever they did to it to make it insensitive sped it up a bit. Kinda like the H4831 I have versus the new stuff (sc). The understanding would be, start with a starting load and increase until the chrony starts reading in the 2500fps area, and who cares what the max is. Like Andy said, rifles have variables, but pressures are pretty consistent at producing speed. An example would be my 338. I needed 72gr of H4350 with 210gr TSX's to get 2950fps out of it, but only 69.5gr of the same powder with the 210gr Scirroco to get the same fps.
That would be why accuracy junkies buy components from the same lot, to gain consistency.
Oh, and I believe that CCI, Federal, Speer, Alliant, etc are all owned by ATK now right? So they would be bedfellows.
