I should be out elk hunting in the back 40 instead of hanging around here... but since I am stuck away from home anyways...
DarrylDB said:
And Rick was getting around 2900 FPS out of his BLR with a 358 Win and 180 gr bullets. Even if I get 2600, I would be horribly Impressed.
Just slightly over 2900 fps, actually. Being away from home I don't have the data with me, but it is with a Barnes X bullet and .5 grains over the maximum load they list in their current manual. I'm pretty sure I remember which powder it is, but I'll keep that to myself until I'm sure.
So, I don't own a .356, but ignoring the big issue of spitzers and tubular magazines, I don't think it should be much behind the .358 as far as ballistic potential goes - if at all. It would have more to do with the OAL the action would permit, tubular vs box magazines, etc.
SuperCub said:
I could never understand why alot of people buy a big bore and shoot lighter bullets. :? 180s in a 35cal are for varmints
There is a fellow here in SJ that had a Sav99 bored out to 358W, but he only shoots 180s in it. He would have been far better off leaving it as is and shooting 180/30cal bullets instead.
There's a couple of reasons people do that.
First, premium 180 grainers at those speeds out of the .35 of your choice will kill any elk or moose that walks this planet at 300 yards - just like a 30-06 that gets the same weight bullet out to that distance with the same or slightly less impact velocity. And it would be a daring soul who would claim a 30-06 with 180 grain bullets is inadequate on elk or moose at 300 yards. My wife knows squat about ballistics, bullet weights, etc. But 180 grainers seem to kill everything she points it at - and she has less recoil to deal with than a 180 grainer our of a smaller bore (bigger expansion ratio equals more velocity for powder weight, thank you very much Mr. .35).
Second, heavy bullets out of 35's have their places... but they aren't the best choice once your hunting area starts offering possibilities of longer shots across cutblocks, down power and gas lines, etc. At least, they aren't unless you've got the capacity to throw the bullets a lot faster than a 358/356 Winchester will.
Third, it is better to have and not need, than need and not have. A 180 grain bullet out of a .358/.356 will match a .308 or 30-06 for performance - but when we go into the slide alders and start walking the trails and bugling elk in, that's when a magazine of 250 grainers goes in the BLR. Because it's a very real possibility that a grumbly bear will come to check out the bugling and squealing - or right after a shot - instead of an elk. It is also not impossible to bump into bears practically nose to nose when hunting in the doghair.
And in THOSE cases, a .358 with those heavy 250's stoked up is the better choice and something that can't be matched by a .308. Would I stay home or not go in there if I only had a .308? Of course not - but the .358/.356 with heavy bullets is a better choice, so you take it.
So, the guy with the bored out Savage 99 at the least isn't any worse off than he was before- assuming he never, ever has a need or want for anything other than a 180 grain jacketed bullet. If he wants something heavy, then he can do it where he wouldn't have been as well off if he'd stuck with the .308.
If he wants to go all the way and start doing his hunting with cast bullets, once again the .358/.356 is a better choice. It is relatively easy to get cast bullets in the 250 gr. range to 2500 - 2600 fps out of a .358 if you know what you are doing (meaning proper bullet fit to lead, heat treating bullets to match operating pressure of the load, etc). Getting anything out of a .308 in a cast bullet with enough weight and enough speed to match that just isn't going to happen. Nor is it going to have the beer can meplat that makes a cast bullet so effective as a hunting load.
Maybe the bottom line is that more weight does not necessarily equal better.
The ones that get the most are big magnun cases full of slow burning powder, usually in a fast, flat shooting calibers, like .264Mag or a 7STW or the Remington Ultra Mags come to mind as well as few others. These are long range guns, which the 35Whelen isn't.
I gather from that you must be speaking of distances out beyond 400 yards?
Paco Kelly - who has probably shot more game in his life than most of us have ever dreamed of - points out that a 180 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity approaching 3100 fps works just fine for longer range shots on game in Africa and North America. I certainly don't disagree with him.
That 180 grain bullet, sighted to point of impact at 300 yards, is only going to be 12" low at 400, 21" at 450, and 30" at 500. The 200 grain bullet would be pretty much more of the same because its' much better BC makes up for the lower MV. The 225 grain Barnes will (I'm guessing here) make 2800 fps according to the folks at Barnes. Sighted in an inch high at 300 yards, it would be 14" low at 400, 23", at 450, etc.
That makes it an honest to God 400 yard cartridge in my book, and argueably a 450 yard cartridge as well. I am speculating it would also be a better choice for elk and moose at those ranges than the aforementioned .264 Winchester Magnum.
Which leads us back to the old debate of - really - what percentage of hunters have the marksmanship skills to be ethically shooting at game at those ranges and beyond? Not just off a bench, mind you, but under field conditions up in the mountains?
Without launching that topic again, I'll take the position that the .35 Whelen has all the legs and power that 99.9% of the hunters out there can use, and all the legs and power to meet 99% of the hunting situations encountered by 100% of the hunters out there.
Of course you can buy one of the new ultra mags, a .358 STA, or whatever. They will shoot flatter at longer ranges and develop more power at longer ranges - in exchange for consuming vastly more powder, far more recoil, etc. For those who have both the skill and the opportunity to routinely shoot beyond 300 yards - and either don't mind the recoil or the heavier weight or a dragon call to deal with the recoil - then they're the answer.
But for the mere mortals out there, a .356 or .358 with spitzer bullets - and certainly a .35 Whelen - has all the legs and power we're likely to need at most hunting ranges with 180 grain bullets. No doubt within 200 yards using heavier bullets, there is nothing walking this continent that it is not well suited for.
