.357 Magnum 1894 levers and 77/357 bolts: Accuracy?

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philthygeezer

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What sort of accuracy should I expect? I have tried a couple of these rifles, and so far the results have been disappointing: 2-3 inch groups at 50 yards with factory .38 Spl and .357 Mag ammo.

Do you have to handload to get anything good? Would getting 1 MOA be a pipe dream? 2 MOA? Should I give it another go?

With .223 I'm getting sub half-inch at 50 yards with a few different rifles, so it's not me!
 
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I have a Trapper, a 77-357, a Marlin 1894 but the one that really take the cake with AE 158 gr JHP is my Henry Big Boy @ 50 yards on the bag, opensights, it do a ragged hole, i wont scope that beauty but it was, pretty sure it would be a MOA rifle... JP.
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ha: A-hem....that's BS dude, total BS! ha:

Philthy, I have been shooting may Marlin 1894C for years and in laboratory settings, rifle anchored, cooling down after each shot with perfectly loaded ammo, and glass...maybe can come close - but certainly not really realistic. The rifles are great shooters, and with the factory irons, I can hit any 8" target (field position) from 15 to 100 yards consistently.

With the factory irons, expectations of an MOA grouping each time, is simply not possible. Those big factory buckhorns are what, 3 or 4 MOA at best without tinkering? Incidentally, 1 MOA at 50 yards is about 0.52". The bullet diameter is 0.357". The "one ragged hole with my Henry is total rubbish"

I shoot silhouette with mine from standing and have tried a variety of loads and bullets. The rifle shoots very consistent, but with the 357 cartridge, there are so many variables that claiming it is a MOA rifle or less is quite simply a flight of fantasy. I test mine for consistency with a rest and have yet to have a perfect 1MOA groupings with the 357 and factory irons. At 50 yards, tinkered factory irons, AE 158 gr ammo (or my loaded cowboy leads) and from standing, my groups are about 2.5" to 3" consistently - with lotsa flyers. Good enough for the Chickens though.
 
In order to really gain accuracy from these type of cartridges, you need better barrels, ammo and set ups.

There are cast bullet BR shooters that are sub MOA at 200yds.

Schutzen (sp?) style rifles doing 1/2 min or better. These are using very very old style rifles, sights and chamberings.

I would not doubt that with a lot of effort, a 38cal something or other could be made very accurate but that is not coming from a factory rifle and HG ammo.

Jerry
 
Thanks guys. I used Leupold 3-9x33mm EFRs at fifty yards and the best I could do was occasionally (luckily?) around 2 inches with factory 158 grain Rem and Win .38s, and 110-125 grain .357 magnums. Most groups a couple landed in the same spot but the rest 'patterned' out to 3-5".

Maybe my expectations are just too high. I'm used to .22s and .223s that print well under an inch at that range. It seems normal. Why wouldn't it be easy to get a .357 consistent enought to print 1" at 50 yards with factory ammo?

The notion is to have something that will take the heads off grouse and bunnies at 25-40 yards, and still have enough juice to stop a black bear if the pepper spray fails.
 
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Put a marbles or lyman tang sight on the marlin and a smaller front bead if you're not already using a scope, the factory buckhorn sights are less then ideal. You would also benefit with handloads with the heavier 158 grain pills.

Shooting a 223 at 50 yards for groups may indicate a little more trigger time is needed with your 357, take your 223 targets and drag it 50 yards further and see how you do.
 
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JP is NOT "out to lunch" as suggested... My .357 Mag Henry, .357 Maximum Handi and Win 94 .357 can all do 2 MOA... The Handi Max can do 1 MOA all with handloads and either 158 GC cast or 180 SSP's... And for the record, the larger the bullet diameter the easier it is to shoot "one ragged hole."
 
hoytcanon said:
JP is NOT "out to lunch" as suggested... My .357 Mag Henry, .357 Maximum Handi and Win 94 .357 can all do 2 MOA... The Handi Max can do 1 MOA all with handloads and either 158 GC cast or 180 SSP's... And for the record, the larger the bullet diameter the easier it is to shoot "one ragged hole."
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Prove it then. Let's see 5 control pictures (verified shots and distances) of at least 5 groupings, those 357 Henry and Winny, factory buckhorn sights, maybe sandbag or two - at say 50 yards - all within 0.52" (1 MOA) or 1.04" (2 MOA). Show us all just how easy it is to shoot into "one ragged hole"!
 
Got this little video made last year @ the range, distance 50 yards, rifles 77-44..... 8 shots open sights / 10-22..... 20 shots, scoped... unperfect ragged holes... JP.
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hoytcanon said:
JP is NOT "out to lunch" as suggested... My .357 Mag Henry, .357 Maximum Handi and Win 94 .357 can all do 2 MOA... The Handi Max can do 1 MOA all with handloads and either 158 GC cast or 180 SSP's... And for the record, the larger the bullet diameter the easier it is to shoot "one ragged hole."
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Handi-rifle yes you could possibly tune a handload to put 3 into an inch @50y. Bolt action 77 I could maybe buy it.
I've owned (own) and shot '92 clones and many different 1894's and they will always throw a flyers in a five inch group. You can run a bead of silicone between the barrel and magazine tube as well as eliminate any tight spots or binding of the barrel band, but tube mags always effect harmonics on these rifles, nature of the beast.
 
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philthygeezer said:
What sort of accuracy should I expect? I have tried a couple of these rifles, and so far the results have been disappointing: 2-3 inch groups at 50 yards with factory .38 Spl and .357 Mag ammo.

Do you have to handload to get anything good? Would getting 1 MOA be a pipe dream? 2 MOA? Should I give it another go?

With .223 I'm getting sub half-inch at 50 yards with a few different rifles, so it's not me!
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It's not you!

Best I've ever consistently benched at 50y with any of the pistol cal. levers is around 2" factory ammo or handloads. Have I shot the occassional group that was tighter?,well yes but never on a consistent basis.
The 1894P I used to have was the most accurate of the bunch, 16" barrel with a dovetail slot to mount the magazine, no barrel bands,full power loads.
When you go to light handloads (cowboy)the accuracy suffers slightly as well as now your dealing with powder charges that don't come close to filling the case and can be affected by position. I use Trailboss these days for that exact reason.
You need find some ammo your particular rifle shoots well,load the magazine,stand-up from the bench and blast away at clays or 1 liter pop bottles. You'd be surprised how good your work will be,and quickly realize how accurate you can be.
 
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philthygeezer said:
Thanks guys. I used Leupold 3-9x33mm EFRs at fifty yards and the best I could do was occasionally (luckily?) around 2 inches with factory 158 grain Rem and Win .38s, and 110-125 grain .357 magnums. Most groups a couple landed in the same spot but the rest 'patterned' out to 3-5".

Maybe my expectations are just too high. I'm used to .22s and .223s that print well under an inch at that range. It seems normal. Why wouldn't it be easy to get a .357 consistent enought to print 1" at 50 yards with factory ammo?

The notion is to have something that will take the heads off grouse and bunnies at 25-40 yards, and still have enough juice to stop a black bear if the pepper spray fails.
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Factory HG ammo is simply not made to very high standards vs the varmint rifle ammo. I bet handloads will really shrink groups or offer the options of using pistol bullets for grouse, and big honking cast monsters for boo boo.

Run some factory HG ammo over a chronie. wouldn't surprise me to see spreads of 100fps or more. This stuff is designed to have an effective range UNDER 20yds from a revolver.

2" at 100yds on a consistent basis is about all that I would expect from handloads and your Ruger. Much smaller groups would result at 50yds.

For bumble bee shaped bullets, those extra 50yds can really cause groups to open up.

Jerry
 
PG, I've never owned a lever 357 or rifle in 357 at all for that matter but did significant load testing with a couple 357 revolvers and a Coonan many years back. I found a full house load (from the manuals) of W-W 296 with jacketed bullets from 140 gn to 158 gn all cases trimmed to identical length, (make didn't seem to matter but not mixed) and a good heavy roll crimp in the cannelure were super accurate and consistent. These loads shot outstanding and the SDs were in single digits at least 1/2 the time, accuracy was at least 2-3 times better than any cast load or any other jacketed load with other powders like 2400 or unique. Never tried H 110 as I was told it was exactly the same powder as W-W 296 and I had already hoarded up about 20 lbs of 296. My Coonan would keep 2" off bags at 50 mtrs if I did everything exactly right, and I did it often enough so as not to be a fluke (of course I wasn't always up to the task) but the gun seemed to want to do it all the time. Both revolvers gave me the same results but the SDs weren't as tight, as I wouldn't expect due to cyl gap and chamber differences, one was a S&W 686 6" and the other was a Ruger old model Blackhawk with 6" barrel. I have found the same to be true of the 44 Rem as well, 296, loaded to max with 240-300 gn bullets gives me the best consistency and accuracy in both handguns and my Win/Miroku 92 rifle. I don't even try other powders in magnum handgun cartridges anymore, just reach for the 296. I did find a very accurate load with hard cast 248 gn KT 44 bullets and 9 gns of unique but still not as accurate as jacketed and 296..........just trying to reduce the cost of shooting silhouette for a few years. 150-200 rounds a week gets a little pricey using all jacketed bullets.
Most people don't trim handgun cartridges but I found it essential to keep the crimp tension consistent. I found factory ammo and brass to vary considerably even from new so it became necessary to trim it all to the same length, which if I remember correctly I only had to do once and then it was good right up till necks started cracking at about 10 loads. Just a thought, that might help you out.
 
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On thing for sure my 77-44 is an accurate rifle but my Henry BB is just more accurate, could be the fact that big octogonal barrel is so heavy, it must stabilize harmonics thus giving me very good groups, my Henry weight is just south of 9 pounds... JP.
 
caramel said:
On thing for sure my 77-44 is an accurate rifle but my Henry BB is just more accurate, could be the fact that big octogonal barrel is so heavy, it must stabilize harmonics thus giving me very good groups, my Henry weight is just south of 9 pounds... JP.
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Is the mag tube secured by a barrel band or dovetail hanger on those Henrys?
I'll buy the heavier barrel giving better accuracy as well.
 
caramel said:
It is secured with a barrel bad near the muzzle, doesnt seem to be touching anywere else... JP.
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Barrel band would be more like the one around the end of the forestock's wood.
The front lug for the mag tube does not have a band around the barrel on yours......maybe pinned or dovetailed?
 
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