357 magnum for deer

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vpsalin said:
What is the true answer to minimum deer caliber? It probably hovers around 7.62x39, 44Mag, .223. Those are double the power of a .357
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The true answer is shot placement using a bullet that will work for the task at hand.

The .357 has been used by way too many hunters on way too many animals for me to question it's ability. If I have a question about a cartridge, it's best to source information from people that have actually used it rather than take the opinion of those that arbitrarily decide it's not enough. I've never owned a .357 carbine, but I did personally know one guy that has used his on dozens of bear and deer. There is also a huge volume of information on the internet from those that have actually used it.

I'm starting to question if the 140GR barnes is really the best for 357 mag bullet out there. It seems like it's not meant for carbine velocities. Does someone know clearly what the best carbine deer bullet is?
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180gr bullets like the XTP seem to be popular.
 
A minimum cartridge definition for deer can't really be based off of energy numbers. I don't see any reason a 357 mag wouldn't be a fine option in a carbine rifle under the circumstances the OP has listed. It wouldn't be my first choice, but it should work just fine.

-Factory Remington 405gr 45-70 loads have 1350 ft/lbs of energy at 50y from a 24" barrel.
-Factory Remington 165gr 357 mag loads have 1000 ft/lbs of energy at 50y from a 18.5" barrel.
-Factory Remington 40gr 204 Ruger loads have 1200ft/lbs of energy at 50y from a 22" barrel.
 
Sun_and_Steel_77 said:
Only place in Canada I would take a deer with a .357 is the province of BC as it is illegal for them to wear kevlar under the body armour control act.

I swear the deer get tougher on CGN with every passing year, the OP is talking about using a well constructed bullet at a reasonable range with a carbine length barrel and there are still the naysayers :confused:
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Numbers add up to nothing,it's bullet placement and sane range limitations.The 158gr I found in the mulie doe made 20" of penetration and a classic mushroom.If you feel safe standing in front of a .357 mag carbine at 125 yards go ahead ,I'm not.Truckloads of deer have been shot with 32-20's and the like.If you can set up close enough to shoot a deer with a bow it's sad you can't harvest one with a gun at the same distance.Speculation on "that won't work" is counterproductive to those of us doing annual autopsies on evidence it did work.I'd like to be able to use a big bore airgun personally...........Harold
 
I have an H&R sportsman (Model 999) in my collection that took a deer in 1957 by the old guy that I got it from, right in his back yard. He showed me the photo with him holding the gun, so yes it can happen! .357 mag is quite capable!
 
Unless there is a good reason to use a .357 on deer, I don't see the point... there are plenty of low recoil, inexpensive options available that are eminently more capable... if pistol calibers "turn your crank," then consider the .44 Rem Mag, which can do a good job at close range, by throwing a much larger chuck of lead... if it is the Carbine that "gets your goat," there are many in .30/30, .32 Spl, .35 Rem and .45/70 (eg.) that will do a better job... if the .357 Mag is your only rifle, use a stout, heavier bullet and stay well under a 100 yards... choose your shot wisely and place the bullet accurately and you will be fine.
 
There is a you-Tube video (.25-20 WCF deer Hunt 2013) where a guy kills a whitetail with a boiler room shot with same, from a tree stand.
That's a .258" diameter, 86 grain bullet JSP, at 1658 FPS.
Not a deer cartridge. (More like coyotes, foxes, and jack rabbits.)
Still, it does illustrate the importance of bullet placement.
The first shot makes the deer feel ill and it walks away, quite clearly affected.
The second drops it quickly.
A .357 magnum with a 158 grain JSP would achieve about the same velocity in a rifle, and is heavier and should expand to .45-ish diameter.
So, the tissue damage, bleeding, and shock would be much greater than the tiny .25-20.
Considering that more than a few hunters still drop deer with a standard velocity .44-40 at around only 1250 FPS with a .427" diameter, 200 grain hard cast, or JSP bullet, out of their replica Henry or Winchester 66, 73, or 92 rifles, it would seem that a .357 magnum would also work well.
The bullet is lighter but the velocity is higher, and it should expand and penetrate well.
Just keep the range down to around 75 yards maximum.
 
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Can a deer be ethically harvested with a .357 mag, yes but like everyone has else has already said shot placement is key. Like using a bow, my brother uses a 1894 marlin and has harvested many deer with this rifle and never any running shots ever! Personally I would never use this myself when so many other good caliber rifles for deer are readily available.
 
I love these threads. Always ends the same way.
Guys asks if cartridge X is powerful enough, most say yes and the others say to use something bigger.

The guys I don't understand d are the it needs to be more powerful crowd, only because it never ends.

30-30 <308 <3006 <300wsm <300 mag <300 wby <30-378 and we are still using the same bullet. There is always a more powerful round and someone who will claim it necessary.
 
And there's the other end of the scale with those who think magnums are required. Know a guy who won't hunt with anyone unless they use a 300wm or equivalent. As someone else said earlier, deer sure are getting tougher to kill.
 
heronfish said:
I love these threads. Always ends the same way.
Guys asks if cartridge X is powerful enough, most say yes and the others say to use something bigger.

The guys I don't understand d are the it needs to be more powerful crowd, only because it never ends.

30-30 <308 <3006 <300wsm <300 mag <300 wby <30-378 and we are still using the same bullet. There is always a more powerful round and someone who will claim it necessary.
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Well, it's like all of the hunter training gurus who assure all of the newbies that a .30-30 is too light of a cartridge for deer, even though it is arguably the most-used deer cartridge of the 20th century for woods hunting.
They used to claim that only a .30-06 or .270 was enough gun.
Now I am sure that many hunters have come to believe that only a magnum rifle cartridge will kill anything larger than a gopher.
 
Well for me I want something I can shoot consistently into 3 inches or less and I can count on it to bust through the cartilage and muscle of the front shoulder and exit the other side. Based on these parameters maximum range and cartridge/projectile/firearm selection is easier.

Saw a small buck shot at 100+ yards. Guy in my group shot him as he was about to jump a fence with a 30-30 16" Trapper. The round never entered the chest cavity but put a groove in the breast bone. That was enough to take out the lower parts of both lungs. He went like 30 yards.
 
In thick bush your likely to take the shot at 25-50 yards. I suspect you will have lots of energy and accuracy in that round. When is the BBQ. I get about 1800fps with a 140 grain Hornady FXT using 296 out of Rossi 92 (16 inch barrel). I suspect at 50 yards you will have plenty of thump left for a large animal. I have never taken it out hunting more than 2 liter pop bottles, but I might this fall as most deer shot in the area are at 25-50 yards.
 
I have shot 4 or 5 deer with the 357 mag in a Timberwolf pump. I used 158 grain XTP's and had them loaded near max (where it shot the best). Every one of them was a 1 shot kill. Out to around 100 yards. A couple of them were huge muley does! They went down within 3-4 leaps. The bullet did a great job in expanding and did allot of damage to the vitals.

I wouldnt "normally" Use it much past 100 yards, because the velocity will start to drop down below the optimum velocity band for pistol bullet performance.

I have even shot a few bears with 180 grain flat points years ago. Distances were around 25-30 yards. They worked well enough to give me confidence in them. The bears would only run 40-50 yards before going down for good.

Shot placement is obviously the absolute key, but have confidence in it and have fun!
 
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dthunter said:
I have shot 4 or 5 deer with the 357 mag in a Timberwolf pump. I used 158 grain XTP's and had them loaded near max (where it shot the best). Every one of them was a 1 shot kill. Out to around 100 yards. A couple of them were huge muley does! They went down within 3-4 leaps. The bullet did a great job in expanding and did allot of damage to the vitals.

I wouldnt "normally" Use it much past 100 yards, because the velocity will start to drop down below the optimum velocity band for pistol bullet performance.

I have even shot a few bears with 180 grain flat points years ago. Distances were around 25-30 yards. They worked well enough to give me confidence in them. The bears would only run 40-50 yards before going down for good.

Shot placement is obviously the absolute key, but have confidence in it and have fun!
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This is why actual experience trumps catchy phrases.

Thanks dthunter. :)
 
dthunter said:
I have shot 4 or 5 deer with the 357 mag in a Timberwolf pump. I used 158 grain XTP's and had them loaded near max (where it shot the best). Every one of them was a 1 shot kill. Out to around 100 yards. A couple of them were huge muley does! They went down within 3-4 leaps. The bullet did a great job in expanding and did allot of damage to the vitals.

I wouldnt "normally" Use it much past 100 yards, because the velocity will start to drop down below the optimum velocity band for pistol bullet performance.

I have even shot a few bears with 180 grain flat points years ago. Distances were around 25-30 yards. They worked well enough to give me confidence in them. The bears would only run 40-50 yards before going down for good.

Shot placement is obviously the absolute key, but have confidence in it and have fun!
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Good reasons for choosing a carbine like the 1894C would be weight, balance, and handling.

While I owned an 1894 in .44 Magnum, I had never fired an 1894C in .357 Magnum until one range session with a friend. That was a revelation. It was smoother in operation, better balanced, easier to swing, easier to hit offhand with, and just simply faster.

With peep sights, it, or a similar .357 carbine would be a great carry gun, if not the most powerful.

All of this got me interested so I did a little research.

From Handloads.com: (I make no claims as to the accuracy of this data)

158 grain JSP
15.2 grains Alliant 2400
Small magnum pistol primer
Velocity - 1535 FPS from 6" revolver barrel
Pressure - 33000 ( does not say whether PSI or CUP)

This load is well within the safe chamber pressure for a Marlin 1894C, and with an 18" barrel would develop around 1850 FPS.

Comparing that to an SKS using 7.62 x 39, a 154 grain JSP would develop around 2200 FPS.
The SKS, however, by comparison, has the handling characteristics of a 2X4 with a 2 pound weight hanging off the end.
 
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Lonesome Donkey said:
From Handloads.com: (I make no claims as to the accuracy of this data)

158 grain JSP
15.2 grains Alliant 2400
Small magnum pistol primer
Velocity - 1535 FPS from 6" revolver barrel
Pressure - 33000 ( does not say whether PSI or CUP)

This load is well within the safe chamber pressure for a Marlin 1894C, and with an 18" barrel would develop around 1850 FPS.

Comparing that to an SKS using 7.62 x 39, a 154 grain JSP would develop around 2200 FPS.
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This is the load I use in my Ruger 77/357.
I use the same 15.2gr of 2400 under a 158gr Hornady XTP, it produces a muzzle velocity of 1875fps (on average) out of the 18.5" barrel.
 
Oh gawd...don't get started on the SKS....Some people here think it will bounce off a deer :)

The failing the SKS has always had is poor sights. And a short stock and crappy trigger, but lots of people have been able to do good work with poor triggers and less than ideal stocks. But the sights can mess with the best riflemen! :)

I recently acquired a pistol mag adapted SKS with a High Tech aperature sight installed. Once I adjusted the sight to my POA, it's been dead easy to bang away at the 8" 100 yard gong all day from offhand. I couldn't do that with a stock SKS or even one with a bunch of extra stock/scope etc added on. Wow, what a fun SKS to shoot! :)
 
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