.378 Wby

I'm late coming into this conversation.

I've shot a 378 for about 4 years now. Mine doesn't like the Nosler 300. Too bad because that would make an awesome round. My rifle will cloverleaf at 100 yards using Hornady round nose. That's also too bad because I have no interest in shooting round nose bullets.

I can't be bothered with the Nosler Accubond 260s. They can't be loaded to full speeed potential, at least in my rifle.

I want flat trajectory, so I went with Barnes TSX 270. It'll do 1 1/2" at 200 yards and perform at 3100+ fps.

The muzzle brake is terrific, but impractical for hunting. It's too noisy. Get a "Lead Sled" or similar product so you can do load development without teaching yourself how to flinch. I suggest that you also spend the bucks and get a Canjar set trigger installed. I love mine. It will allow better shooting of a hard recoiling rifle. It's easier to "touch off" a round accurately than to wrestle off an accurate shot where there is more trigger resistance--especially if it will be followed with a hard kick to your shoulder.
 
Hi5 said:
I'm late coming into this conversation.

I've shot a 378 for about 4 years now. Mine doesn't like the Nosler 300. Too bad because that would make an awesome round. My rifle will cloverleaf at 100 yards using Hornady round nose. That's also too bad because I have no interest in shooting round nose bullets.

I can't be bothered with the Nosler Accubond 260s. They can't be loaded to full speeed potential, at least in my rifle.

I want flat trajectory, so I went with Barnes TSX 270. It'll do 1 1/2" at 200 yards and perform at 3100+ fps.

The muzzle brake is terrific, but impractical for hunting. It's too noisy. Get a "Lead Sled" or similar product so you can do load development without teaching yourself how to flinch. I suggest that you also spend the bucks and get a Canjar set trigger installed. I love mine. It will allow better shooting of a hard recoiling rifle. It's easier to "touch off" a round accurately than to wrestle off an accurate shot where there is more trigger resistance--especially if it will be followed with a hard kick to your shoulder.
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Welcome to the thread :)
I have a led sled, but wonder if the scope and stock will take a beating? Some guys think it is too rigid. I am getting a limbsaver fitted as we speak to hopefully tame the rearward punch. No muzzle break either.
What powder have you been using? I hear RL22 and H-4831 are good.
 
I have used H4831 primarily. It has the best performance for this cartridge for virtually all bullets available.

Given the cost of shooting this round, I don't plan on taking it out to a prairie dog colony. If the stock or the scope won't stand up to shooting it on the lead sled, with the limited amount of rounds required for load development, I'd rather it fail when I'm at the target range rather than maybe when I'm hunting. Leupold scopes have an excellent warranty. I have had them fail on rifles that were gentle as far as recoil is concerned. Crap happens. If a scope fails, get it fixed. If the stock is Weatherby factory, straight grained, and the action tightly mounted, it won't fail. If it does, I'll sell you a replacement, real reasonable. I bought a highly figured one off EBay, so I have an extra. Don't worry. You won't need it.

You don't have to load down the lead sled with a ton and a half of ballast. If you are concerned about not having any "give", load it down just enough to reduce the punch on you to a tolerable level, but still allow some movement.

Don't assume that the point of impact will be the same when you line up using the lead sled and then switch to shooting without it.

I have bought various bullets for experimental purposes. Some didn't perform as well as I would have liked IN MY RIFLE and I have bullets remaining. If you want to buy a part box for your own tests, I would sell at cost, plus shipping, any of those that I have available. Buying a whole box gets costly with these big bullets, and you don't need 50 bullets to do a test. I don't want to bother working up a list of all surplus bullets I have and then pricing them. If you want some, let me know what you would want and I'll see if I have some. I DO have quite a variety.
 
It has a Zeiss Conquest 3-9x on it, so should be up to the task. I noticed the barrel has a nice recoil lug welded to it and the stock has been bedded at the action and the recess for the lug. Should hold up ok.
I have only used the Led Sled so far with no ballast. But then again it was only my 444P I was shooting :)
I would be interested in some bullets from you. Maybe some 270gr & 300gr TSX and Partitions. Let me know what you have.
 
I fired two shots out of one many years ago. Late 70's or something like that. I owned (and still hunt with) a Husqvarna featherweight in .358 Norma Magnum, and my brother had just bought a .416 Rigby that we had all had a go with. All within our capabilities. My brother's buddy was always the one in camp that had the biggest stereo, the biggest 4x4, the fastest car, etc. Anyways, he bought that Weatherby and five boxes of shells. Out to the range we went when it arrived.

Two shots was enough for me. I can shoot that eight pound .358 Norma Magnum all day with 250 grain bullets, but two shots out of that Weatherby was all it took to convince me it was out of my weight class. The first shot left me in stunned silence - the second was just to prove I actually wasn't scared. Then I went "plinking" with my brother's .416 that we had brought out for comparison.

Maybe I had a really bad fit to the stock or whatever, but that particular session out at the range stays with me 30 years later. If Koldt is following this thread, he will remember "Grinbob", the owner of that rifle...
 
You own one of the "big boys" on the block. I have one on a Brno model 602 and when you are talking about downrange energy up to and including 600 yards, it's awsome. When you are talking about shooting groups off the bench it sucks. I use a "zero recoil" set up that I puchased through the U.S. some years ago, which allows you to work up hanldoads without the flinch factor. If you want to knock down a moose at the 800 yard fenceline I would think about a .338-.378 with a longer barrel (28-30 inch.) If you don't hit them on the mark with the .378, it does not matter much ,provided you are shooting "good" bullets, THEY ARE GOING DOWN.
 
Got a basically new CZ550 and a ton of 378 brass. I've also found a gunsmith with a 378 reamer.(thanks Boomer) Just a matter of takeing the plunge again. Recoil should be fine in this weight of gun.
 
444shooter said:
It has a Zeiss Conquest 3-9x on it, so should be up to the task. I noticed the barrel has a nice recoil lug welded to it and the stock has been bedded at the action and the recess for the lug. Should hold up ok.
I have only used the Led Sled so far with no ballast. But then again it was only my 444P I was shooting :)
I would be interested in some bullets from you. Maybe some 270gr & 300gr TSX and Partitions. Let me know what you have.
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You won't be getting any TSX 270 grainers from me. That's what I'm loading, and I don't have any "extra"

I see no point in the 300 grain bullets for ANY game in North America. All you do is get a poorer trajectory, and for what? The 300 grain is intended to give better penetration. The 270 grain will penetrate more than is needed. What's the gain of having a bullet that penetrates a moose and then goes DEEPER into the mud bank behind the moose?:) :)

I'm not a retailer so I don't want to bother with doing up a catalogue of what I have that is surplus to me and looking up what I paid for each type. I would prefer that you research what you would like to test, then check if I have them. I have tested quite a variety and do have several types that are surplus to me.

Here's a tip. If you intend on using the Barnes TSX and if you can get ahold of some Barnes X cheap, pick up the X bullets. After cleaning your rifle, you likely will need a fouling shot or two before you get down to serious shooting. Why "waste" the expensive TSX for that purpose if you can blast off an X? I prefer to be shooting the same powder and bullet material that is the same, or at least similar, for my fouling shots.

You must have pulled the action out of the stock. Try to tighten the action screws back up to exactly the same torque as when you removed the action. It may take a shot or so the have the action settle back in, so don't count the first few shots as part of an accuracy test.
 
Hi5 said:
I see no point in the 300 grain bullets for ANY game in North America. All you do is get a poorer trajectory, and for what? The 300 grain is intended to give better penetration. The 270 grain will penetrate more than is needed. What's the gain of having a bullet that penetrates a moose and then goes DEEPER into the mud bank behind the moose?:) :)
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OK, I'll bite.

I have found that a 300 grain bullet has several advantages over the 270 gr. First is that impact velocity is lower, resulting in less blood shot meat, blood shot meat being the result of a high velocity bullet impact combined with unfortunate bullet placement. To compensate, when I load 260 or 270 gr bullets for light game, I drop the velocity to 2600.

The idea that a 270 gr bullet shoots flatter than a 300 gr is simply wrong, and even if it wasn't wrong it wouldn't make any difference at normal hunting ranges.

The heavier bullet expands to a larger diameter, and the weight of the bullet drives this expanded bullet, as you say, into the bank beyond the game. A bullet which produces both an entrance and an exit wound are in my opinion better bullets than those which do not. Both entrance and exit wounds wounds let blood out, and let cold air in. The size of the wound cavity inside the game animal is proportional to the size of the expanded diameter of the bullet. The heavier the bullet, generally the larger the expanded frontal area of that bullet will be, which will result in a larger the wound volume. The larger the wound volume, the faster the brain is deprived from life giving oxygenated blood, and the faster the game succumbs to the wound.

According to some folks who have much more experience than I do, bullet performance becomes less reliable when velocities exceed 2500 fps. Therefore, a 300 gr bullet will produce better results, with less velocity than a 270 gr bullet, and it will produce those results more reliably.
 
Boomer

Several items in your post cause me concern.

There is absolutely no basis for saying that heavier bullets expand more than lighter bullets of the same caliber. If bullet jacket material is similarly designed for both lighter and heavier bullets, the deciding factor in bullet expansion will be the speed of the bullet. A lighter bullet almost certainly will be faster, and so will expand MORE than the slower, heavier bullet. Not the other way around!!

As you admit, your heavier bullets cause less damage. That's why.

A quick check with Nosler, Hornady, Accurate Arms, and Barnes manuals show a velocity increase of up to 200 fps by using 270 grain bullets over the 300 grain bullet. That's not huge, I agree. However, if the flatest trajectory is your goal, then, if the ballistic coefficient of the 270 grain is close to the 300 grain, the 270 grain will perform better.

Your wound theory is interesting but unscientific. The 270 grain likely opens up more than the 300. Even so, likely it will penetrate (I mean pass right through) any North American animal and just as effectively as the 300 grain would do. What's the point of more penetration?

The 378 Weatherby can be loaded down to slower speeds. If you do that because the bullets are failing because of the high speed of the 378, that's one cure. Another cure is to use bullets that can withstand higher speed. Barnes, Northfork, are a couple that come to mind. However, if you don't want the speed, frankly, I don't know why anyone would get a 378. If you want 375 H&H performance, why not get a 375 to start with?

By the way, if you are shooting reduced loads, why not shoot the lighter bullet and have somewhat less recoil? You can push the 270 grain at the same speed with less recoil and it will pass through any North American game animal, except maybe for a whale. (Mind you, they likely aren't considered a game animal.):) :) :)
 
The heavier bullet will penetrate deeper, hit harder, and in the case of the 300gr. Horn. rd nose expand more consistantly....don't forget we are talking about a round that shoots as fast as a .270 Win. and is capable of having bullets blowup too quickly...alot of bullets are not up to the high vel. of the .378
 
Hi5 said:
Boomer

Several items in your post cause me concern.

There is absolutely no basis for saying that heavier bullets expand more than lighter bullets of the same caliber. If bullet jacket material is similarly designed for both lighter and heavier bullets, the deciding factor in bullet expansion will be the speed of the bullet. A lighter bullet almost certainly will be faster, and so will expand MORE than the slower, heavier bullet. Not the other way around!!

As you admit, your heavier bullets cause less damage. That's why.

A quick check with Nosler, Hornady, Accurate Arms, and Barnes manuals show a velocity increase of up to 200 fps by using 270 grain bullets over the 300 grain bullet. That's not huge, I agree. However, if the flatest trajectory is your goal, then, if the ballistic coefficient of the 270 grain is close to the 300 grain, the 270 grain will perform better.

Your wound theory is interesting but unscientific. The 270 grain likely opens up more than the 300. Even so, likely it will penetrate (I mean pass right through) any North American animal and just as effectively as the 300 grain would do. What's the point of more penetration?

The 378 Weatherby can be loaded down to slower speeds. If you do that because the bullets are failing because of the high speed of the 378, that's one cure. Another cure is to use bullets that can withstand higher speed. Barnes, Northfork, are a couple that come to mind. However, if you don't want the speed, frankly, I don't know why anyone would get a 378. If you want 375 H&H performance, why not get a 375 to start with?

By the way, if you are shooting reduced loads, why not shoot the lighter bullet and have somewhat less recoil? You can push the 270 grain at the same speed with less recoil and it will pass through any North American game animal, except maybe for a whale. (Mind you, they likely aren't considered a game animal.):) :) :)
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A heavier bullet produces a larger expanded frontal area than a lighter bullet because the bullet with a longer core, or the deeper hollow point cavity has more length to peel back. The result is that a larger frontal area is formed with the heavier bullet.

I shoot a .375/380 gr bullet at 2300 fps, and this bullet expands to nearly an inch. By comparison, a 270 gr bullet at 2800 expands to .65". In a test I conducted a couple of years ago, the wound volume of the 380 gr bullet at 2300 was almost double that of the 270 gr. bullet at 2800, while penetration was equal at 32".

Therefore in game we can expect the heavier bullet to penetrate similarly to the lighter bullet, despite a larger frontal area which proportionally increases the wound volume. In the better designed bullets, full expansion takes place over a broad velocity range, from 2000 fps to over 3000 fps, so there is little need to increase velocity over what is prudent for normal hunting ranges, in order for the bullet to perform properly.

Blood shot meat is an issue separate from wound volume. It is a result of high velocity, and poor bullet placement, and has no benefit in the killing ability of the bullet in question.

To me the real advantage of the .378 would be get another 150 fps from the excellent Rhino 380 gr bullet.
 
Boomer

I think both of us may be thinking of specific bullet examples and then extrapolating as though it applies to all bullets.

I admit that I am kind of stuck on using Barnes. They have had some issues in the past with inconsistent expansion. However, the current stuff seems to have overcome those concerns. Anyway, a Barnes that is .375 to begin with, and which only incompletely opens, is still a formidable bullet.

The Barnes won't open any wider just because the bullet has a longer shank. The amount of frontal mass expansion depends on how much energy is behind the bullet, in other words, speed. Bullet weight doesn't control the degree of expansion with some other controlled expansion bullets such as Nosler, where the partition stops expansion. The nose of a Nosler frequently blows off and once that happens, the portion which follows will be the identical diameter whether it's a heavier or lighter bullet.

I have never used the Rhino bullets. They must be a premium bullet that you are using. Otherwise the bullet would have started coming apart before it expanded to the degree you describe.

Clearly we have a different approach and there may be validity to each. I happen to choose to try for the flattest trajectory. That requires speed, which I prefer to match up with bullets that have a limited and somewhat reduced expansion.
 
I would not trust the 300 Hornady to hold together at 378 speeds. Its probably designed to work at 2600 fps max. In 338 cal. the 225 and 250 Hornadys work great in the 338 but when you go 340 WBY they just splatter. The 378 calls for premium bullets if you're after big stuff.
 
I couldn't get them to shoot well in my rifle so I haven't tested them on targets where I could test penetration and expansion. I certainly didn't test them on game.

In my view, they would be prone to failure, if used at close range or it they hit heavy bone. It takes a better than average bullet to withstand the speed generated by the 378. The Hornady is a "cup and core", ordinary, bullet. If you insist on using cup and core bullets at full throttle, save them for plinking.

For full speed loads go with solid copper such as Barnes, partition such as Nosler, bonded core such as North Fork or others.
 
444shooter said:
It has a Zeiss Conquest 3-9x on it, so should be up to the task. I noticed the barrel has a nice recoil lug welded to it and the stock has been bedded at the action and the recess for the lug. Should hold up ok.
I have only used the Led Sled so far with no ballast. But then again it was only my 444P I was shooting :)
I would be interested in some bullets from you. Maybe some 270gr & 300gr TSX and Partitions. Let me know what you have.
Click to expand...

444shooter, I have 40 270g TSX bullets that you can have for free. Contact me by PM and come and pick them up.

:wave:
 
Hi5 said:
Boomer

I think both of us may be thinking of specific bullet examples and then extrapolating as though it applies to all bullets.

I admit that I am kind of stuck on using Barnes. They have had some issues in the past with inconsistent expansion. However, the current stuff seems to have overcome those concerns. Anyway, a Barnes that is .375 to begin with, and which only incompletely opens, is still a formidable bullet.

The Barnes won't open any wider just because the bullet has a longer shank. The amount of frontal mass expansion depends on how much energy is behind the bullet, in other words, speed. Bullet weight doesn't control the degree of expansion with some other controlled expansion bullets such as Nosler, where the partition stops expansion. The nose of a Nosler frequently blows off and once that happens, the portion which follows will be the identical diameter whether it's a heavier or lighter bullet.

I have never used the Rhino bullets. They must be a premium bullet that you are using. Otherwise the bullet would have started coming apart before it expanded to the degree you describe.

Clearly we have a different approach and there may be validity to each. I happen to choose to try for the flattest trajectory. That requires speed, which I prefer to match up with bullets that have a limited and somewhat reduced expansion.
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I have a few 270 gr XLC's loaded that I haven't shot yet, and their cavity is not quite as deep as the 300 gr TSX. I doubt if this is a fair comparison because the TSX is a completely different bullet from the original X design. It could be that the cavity of both 270 and 300 gr TSX bullets are the same depth.

My point is that many very knowledgeable professional hunter believe that 2400 fps is the optimum velocity for a big game bullet. I think the .378 Weatherby loaded with a 380 gr Rhino would fall into this criteria very nicely, and would be every bit as effective as the .416's, and surpass some of the older Nitro cartridges which have earned good reputations.

North American hunters as a group are overly concerned with high velocity, and the effects of high velocity on both bullets and game is not always positive. Once again here are pics of the bullets from the test I conducted a couple of years back when I was trying to decide which bullet would be best in a close range encounter with a buffalo. The test comprised a 270 and 300 gr X and the 380 Rhino. Velocity for the 270 gr bullet was 2800, 2600 for the 300, and 2300 for the 380. Shooting distance was 20 yards, and as can be seen, the petals were blown off the X's. From this experiment we can see that even a premium bullet can fail, although minimally, if the impact velocity is too high.

DSC_0008.jpg


This test has proven, to me at least, that a heavy for caliber expanding bullet creates larger wound volumes without loss of penetration, that a bonded core, solid shank bullet is superior to mono-metal expanding bullets, and that moderate velocity produces more consistent results than does high.

As for trajectory, I have done very good shooting with the 380 gr bullet out to 300 yards, which is my self imposed limit.
 
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