4 Things to Look for When Evaluating Used Double Barrel Shotguns

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4 Things to Look for When Evaluating Used Double-Barrel Shotguns


Use these tips to help you determine the value of an old shotgun

BY JOHN M. TAYLOR | PUBLISHED MAY 22, 2017 5:52 PM

GUNS

4 Things to Look for When Evaluating Double-Barrel Shotguns.

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1. Chambers
When you’re looking at old guns , particularly 16 and 20 bores, have a chamber gauge handy (connecticutshotgun.com), as many guns made before the mid-1920s have chambers too short for modern shells. They can be lengthened, but that’s a good bargaining point.

2. Action
Remove the forend and feel for looseness by holding the barrels tightly and swinging it back and forth. Hold the action and try to move the barrels sideways and up and down to feel for play. Re- joining barrels will make $500 or more evaporate.

3. Barrels

These should be shiny, but hang them by the hook on your finger and flick both barrels with a wood dowel or a fingernail on your other hand. They should ring like a bell. Also, look down the bore of the barrel for unusual ripples or bulges.


4. Stocks

Be careful with sidelock guns, as their stocks are very thin at the head and tend to crack. Very dark wood at the stock’s head normally means it is oil-soaked and mushy. Replacing the forend with the same grain of wood as the original is virtually impossible.


https://www.outdoorlife.com/evaluat...3o3buLgFUQ0aTdPPuTuogL2T4yXWBybPbfE0HXq-pBBUo
 
Good basic advice here, clear and easy to understand and apply. There are many other factors to consider when assessing an old double but these major ones cover the most serious problems, ones that can make a gun a very poor choice because they point to repairs that are just not economically viable on most guns.
 
huntingfish said:
Very interesting!

Great starting points. Any more advice from the pros out there?

David
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Make sure the dimensions fit you. Some old SxS shotguns have short and/or "droppy" stocks. If you intend to shoot it, know what dimensions work for you and measure or feel it before you commit.
 
Check opening lever when action is closed. With barrels facing away the lever should be straight in line with the center of the gun. Slightly to the right is preferable as this usually denotes an action that hasn't been slammed shut numerous times. The more the lever sits to the left usually means the gun has seen much use, at least from being slammed closed. This can be fixed by carefully peening the locking lug back into shape.
 
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rmsg0040 said:
^^ I want my lever to the right, 5'oclock position.
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I corrected. Meant that to the right is preferable , not left. Mind you, I have a brand new Mossberg Maverick that closes with the lever barely clicking shut. The lever actually sits over the right sideplate when completly shut. I looked at some others and they were near the same. Never seen one so exaggerated.
 
handofzeus said:
Check opening lever when action is closed. With barrels facing away the lever should be straight in line with the center of the gun. Slightly to the right is preferable as this usually denotes an action that hasn't been slammed shut numerous times. The more the lever sits to the left usually means the gun has seen much use, at least from being slammed closed. This can be fixed by carefully peening the locking lug back into shape.
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And any gun that I come across that some well meaning bubba has peened anything on promptly goes back on the table. At best this is a temporary repair that will quickly shoot loose and is usually ugly as well. The position of the top lever ( centre to right of centre) is an indication of how solidly the gun locks up but shaking the gun with the forend removed will give you a much better idea of how tight it is or isn’t and if not, then where to look for the problem area.
 
handofzeus said:
I corrected. Meant that to the right is preferable , not left. Mind you, I have a brand new Mossberg Maverick that closes with the lever barely clicking shut. The lever actually sits over the right sideplate when completly shut. I looked at some others and they were near the same. Never seen one so exaggerated.
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Your Maverick appears to be poorly jointed ( not unusual on a basic machine made gun) and just barely locking up. With enough shooting it may wear in ( then wear out) or maybe it will just start popping open when you fire it. An automatic break action.
 
This is a good thread for discussion.

I check for any sign of rust along the upper and lower ribs. A small amount of rust here might be a sign of more dangerous rust underneath, weakening the barrels.

The condition of the screws (pins) is a big one for me. If screws that should be timed are not aligned, it tells me something might be off. Buggered slots is a huge red flag, telling me that someone without the right tools, and likely skills, has meddled. Cased guns used to be sold with a screwdriver (turnscrew) of a specific size, usually for removing the locks for light oiling; any other screw was reserved for the maker/gunsmith — this was an intelligent practice.

I also look for signs of repairs. Old repairs done by a competent gunsmith are not a red flag, and can be expected on guns over 100 years old. What screams out at me are repairs of a make-do nature, where the correct repair was not done. I disagree with the earlier suggestion; if I see a hinge hook that has been peened, I walk away, no matter how desirable the gun or the deal. Fixing a loose hinge action requires the fitting of a new, slightly oversized hinge pin, an expensive but necessary solution. Anything else, peening, shims etc. may lead to problems elsewhere, where the gun cannot properly absorb the pressures and stresses of use. If a gun has not been repaired and maintained properly in its long life, there can be problems that are not readily seen.

On a hammer gun, I listen to how the locks ‘speak’, listening for the sharp clicks of the detents. If the locks speak well, and the hammers line up perfectly at each detent, chances are high the locks are in good order and are not worn out, or had parts improperly replaced or adjusted.

I would take a long look at the proofmarks, making sure I understood what the gun was supposed to be. I would walk away from a gun that was out of proof by having its chamber lengthened. While if done correctly there might be no problem, but without re-proof requirements, there is no way of knowing if a gun has been rendered unsafe. A well-worn gun with mirror bores might be a well-maintained gun, or it might have been lapped out to dangerous thinnesss; having such a gun measured for bore thickness by a knowledgeable smith would be a necessity. For short-chambered guns, I would look long and hard along the inside and outside of the barrels, looking for the rivelling or bulging that could appear if improper shells had been used. On this side of the Atlantic, it is a lot to hope for that a short-chambered gun hasn’t been fed a diet of improper shells somewhere along the way, leading to a variety of problems — like loose hinges, split wood, loose ribs, and other barrel woes.

Finally, I try to look at the whole picture, looking for signs of ill-advised restoration: wood finishes that aren’t right, uneven wear, and tell-tale marks of over-enthusiastic metal polishing. Not necessarily deal-breakers, but signs to look more closely for less obvious problems, and factors to keep in mind when evaluating price and value.

Not many possessions are made to last several generations! Thankfully, fine doubles are, if used and cared for properly.
 
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A great looking double can be a delight or a curse, the trick is to tell the difference. The basic design of most side by sides has been in common use since the late 1870’s, that’s nearly 150 years of wear and tear, use and abuse to consider. A nice modern looking side by side might have been made in the 1970’s or it may have been seeing service since 1910 and it takes specialized knowledge to tell the difference. Old isn’t necessarily a problem but condition can make or break value. Generally better quality guns age more reliably than basic quality guns and if there are problems or repairs to be dealt with are more likely to be worth the cost. It costs about the same for any given repair or service on a Belgian clunker as on a Parker or Purdey. Choose your projects wisely. If you want a nice gun, one that will give years of satisfactory service and pride of ownership while maintaining or increasing it’s value consider this……
BARRELS
This, not the action, is the heart of the gun. If the barrels are too far gone the gun is done. On less expensive modern machine made guns, barrels from another gun may fit with minor adjustment but on better quality guns this won’t work and new barrels are prohibitively expensive except for the rarest most expensive guns. Barrel problems can be obvious or more subtle but to me sound barrels are essential, most other problems can be dealt with ( for a cost)…
Loose rib….repairable but cost can range $500-$1500.
Pitting, internal…. This opens a can of worms that can involve measuring wall thickness and experience in interpreting the results. In general avoid deep pitting or any pitting at all in obviously thin ( rebored) barrels. Deep pits are weak points and can be dangerous. Thin barrel walls are weakened both in pressure resistance and also resistance to dents. If the wall thickness is sufficient the barrel can be bored and honed smooth, cost is $150-$200 per tube if the barrel is a suitable candidate, many aren’t.
Chamber length…. Most doubles made since WW2 have 2 3/4” or 3” chambers, no problem. Most prewar English and European doubles and some older American ones have shorter chambers, typically 2 1/2”. No problem for a hunting gun that will seldom see more than a couple of boxes a year, LEAVE THE CHAMBERS ALONE! The correct ammo is available in Canada from several sources. Lengthened chambers further weaken the barrel at it’s most vulnerable point and invites uninformed shooters to use higher pressure ammo than the gun was designed or built for. And this follows the gun through subsequent owners forever. It can be safely done on some guns but without specific knowledge of the barrel integrity and who did the work I usually avoid such guns.
Dents….. small dents, rounded dents, can be inexpensively raised, $50-$75 each. May also require barrel finish to be touched up. Deep dents, large dents, creases are hit or miss, best avoided. Definitely avoid anything that looks like a crack or sharp crease, this is not salvageable.
Damascus or twist barrels? When they were new these barrels on good quality guns were every bit as strong as most of the steel barrels of the period, often better. Today? Well if they have managed to survive 120 or more years in undamaged and unaltered condition, no pitting and in proof they are probably still as good as when they were made. Such barrels are scarce but they are in regular use in Britain and Europe with appropriate ammo and many are reproofed annually for modern ammo. The key in addition to condition is the use of ammo that the gun is proofed for and in older guns this will be black powder. Do not use these guns without specific approval of an experienced double shotgun smith unless you have the ability to accurately judge it yourself.
This isn’t intended to turn a prospective buyer into an expert but it may help someone find a gem while avoiding a mistake. Next subject - actions.
 
Ah yes, sleeved barrels. Basically the old tubes are replaced forward of the chambers by new ones, similar to the monoblock barrel mounting system used on most Italian and Turkish guns today. The process can give you shiny brand new barrels for a fraction of the cost of having new barrels made, fitted and finished. It sounds great and it rejuvenated many guns with poor barrels in the 1960’s, 70’s and 80’s but it’s seldom done today. Why? Cost. A new set of barrels properly installed on a vintage double can cost $5000 - $ $8000 Can. now, a best solution that is only practical for the finest, most valuable guns. However, the last time I priced it maybe five years ago, a sleeving complete is now about $2000 - $3000, still far too much to spend on a gun with a likely modest finished value. And while yes, it can make a gun that is nearly worthless once again into a useful tool, the finished product, even with nice shiny new tubes is worth much less than the same gun would be with the original barrels in excellent condition. So it isn’t done much any more, it is no longer a cheap but satisfactory solution to ruined barrels.
Today a gun with sleeved barrels can be a real bargain for the person that wants a good gun to use and isn’t concerned with collector value which disappears when sleeved. IF done carefully by a knowledgeable and competent smith you can end up with a fine gun at modest cost. However, like most things, there are pitfalls. In a nut shell the top and bottom ribs are removed and the barrels cut off just ahead of the chambers, leaving the breech area with locking lugs and the extractors intact. The barrel stubs are bored to accept the barrel tubes and the tubes turned down at the breech end to fit these holes. The tubes are blocked apart, tinned, ribs tinned and then all four ( or five) pieces soldered together full length and into the stubs and the forend lug also soldered in place. Now you have a rough set of barrels that can have the chambers cut and extractor recesses cut and be installed on the action, making a gun. Of course, excess solder must be cleaned off, barrels struck, polished and finished but way before that the barrels need to be regulated so that they both shoot to the same point of impact. The barrel striking removes excess metal from the outside of the barrels so that you finish with a lively well balanced gun, not a club. Many many hours of highly skilled labour by a very skilled craftsman. There are only a handful of smiths in Canada who can do a good job of this today. Even less who actually will do it.
However, if a neatly sleeved gun balances nicely for you and is priced reasonably it can get you into a very nice gun at a fair price. Most that I have encountered have been well regulated but not all and this is something you can’t check except at the pattern board. I have owned and used some of these, still have a dandy.
 
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I see sleeved guns for sale across the atlantic and ive looked into buying from such auctions but all the fees add up substantially reducing the likelihood of my buying.
Im holding out for Canadian guns to hit the market of little demand in the up coming years
 
I agree BB buying sleeved guns is something I just cannot bring myself to do ..yet .It is tough enough to buy sight unseen without the thought of a poor sleeve job hanging over ones head .Am new to this but tend to tread carefully with respect to what risk I am willing to take RD
 
Big Bad said:
So what about grading the wood?
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Everything else being equal and assuming no cracks, buy what looks good to you. Wood is a bit different than the steel parts. Among other things, it’s almost designed to be replaced, if required. Not so with the barrels or action.

Also, and I’m saying this as someone who buys blanks and has guns restocked, every seller has different criteria for what constitutes various grades of wood. My Purdey, from the early 1930s, has very nice but by modern standards, relatively plain wood. I no longer think of wood as having a “quality and appearance” grade. Either the grain flow is right and you like the look, or it doesn’t and you don’t.
 
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reddog said:
I agree BB buying sleeved guns is something I just cannot bring myself to do ..yet .It is tough enough to buy sight unseen without the thought of a poor sleeve job hanging over ones head .Am new to this but tend to tread carefully with respect to what risk I am willing to take RD
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I’d buy a sleeved gun in a second if I thought it was a quality job, the gun handles as it should (part of a quality job) and the price reflected the market’s assessment of sleeved guns.
 
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