44 mag opinions?
- Thread starter bigbore14
- Start date
Just a question from some one who's not up on loads etc. wouldn't a 10mm pistol loaded hot be comparable before you jump all over me Just Asking !!
well raw power factor as they compute for gaming, which is very simplistic and does not give foot pounds energy on target but DOES give some reference point. All velocites listed are from corbon's hunting line.
Bullet weight x FPS /1000 = PF
ADDED FOOT POUND ENERGY NUMBERS
a hot
10mm = 200gr @ 1200fps = 240 Power Factor (approx 600 FPE)
44 mag = 240gr @ 1475fps = 354 PF (1160 FPE)
454 mag = 300gr @ 1650fps = 495 PF (1814 FPE)
454 mag = 360gr @ 1300fps = 468 PF (1351 FPE)
460S&W = 300gr @ 1750fps = 525 PF (2041 FPE)
460S&W = 395gr @ 1525fps = 602 PF (2040 FPE)
500S&W = 350 @ 1600fps = 560 PF (1990 FPE)
500S&W = 500gr @ 1500 = 750 PF ( 2499 FPE)
Notice 10mm is HALF the foot pound energy that even a .44 magnum is....
It is. Just on the low end of the scale. Too bad they don't have 270 and 300 gr loads in that chart for the 44 Mag and hot loaded 45 Colts (in Rugers). - dan
peter2772000
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Montreal, Quebec, Canada
First, go directly to the CFO's office. Then, close the door to his office and get on your knees. A pillow beneath your knees will make this easier..... 
I carried a S&W 629, 6" in the eighties. My brother had a Ruger Redhawk 7.5", and we spent a lot of time comparing. The Ruger could handle much hotter loads than my S&W, but I could always out shoot him with the S&W. After years of working in the bush, and never seeing a grizzly, I switched to a 10mm Colt. I learned to shoot it with really good accuracy, and it was much easier to pack.
I now own a Glock 20, and if I ever get another carry permit, I'll pack the Glock, with some decent handloads. It might lack 44 energy, but it has 11 rounds vs 6, and a better chance of hitting the target. It took me a few years, but I've decided Glock is the absolute best firearm, when the chips are down.
If I did end up in grizzly country, I'd dig out my old model 29 4". I've owned Rugers, but I just don't like them as much as S&W.
I now own a Glock 20, and if I ever get another carry permit, I'll pack the Glock, with some decent handloads. It might lack 44 energy, but it has 11 rounds vs 6, and a better chance of hitting the target. It took me a few years, but I've decided Glock is the absolute best firearm, when the chips are down.
If I did end up in grizzly country, I'd dig out my old model 29 4". I've owned Rugers, but I just don't like them as much as S&W.
445 supermag
Lots of feeling about the best protection gun????
If you can't control it and shoot quickly and accuratly then it really doesn't matter, your lunch , unless the big bang scares it away. I like the 44 load of 300gr sp moving at around 1800 fps from my Dan Wesson Supermag . What it does to steel targets is devistating penetration unbelievable and way easier to control than some of the muzzel jumping others. It heavy and tends to push more than jump and you can get back on target quicker.
my 2 cents
supermag
Lots of feeling about the best protection gun????
If you can't control it and shoot quickly and accuratly then it really doesn't matter, your lunch , unless the big bang scares it away. I like the 44 load of 300gr sp moving at around 1800 fps from my Dan Wesson Supermag . What it does to steel targets is devistating penetration unbelievable and way easier to control than some of the muzzel jumping others. It heavy and tends to push more than jump and you can get back on target quicker.
my 2 cents
supermag
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
The circumstances under which ATCs are issued are for commercial activities in wilderness areas where an individual's duties preclude protecting himself or others from wildlife with a long gun. Such activities pretty much rule out oversized handguns, as their bulk approaches the bulk of a small rifle or shotgun and you are normally there to work not rather than act as a dedicated bear guard. In a high risk area, a dedicated bear guard with a rifle or shotgun is desirable. Therefore "normal sized" handguns are preferred, and barrel lengths much over 6" should be considered a hinderance. For those of us fortunate enough to be 12.6 authorized, there is of course no minimum barrel length, although I personally prefer revolver barrels between 4" and 5". The wording on my ATC is "authorization to carry restricted or prohibited handguns."
As to power, big power is of no disadvantage in the hunting handgun, but the defensive handgun is a reactionary tool which might have to be used without warning in a confined space. Under those circumstances it would not be out of the question that a fast followup shot might be required to solve the problem. The difficulty of making an accurate, fast, followup shot is directly related to the amount of blast and recoil the shooter must recover from before he can fire his subsequent shot.
What does the defensive handgun need to accomplish? If we work on the principal that a wild animal can't hurt you if it can't touch you, the role of the defensive handgun then is to stop the animal's forward progression. In the case of bear trouble, a rifle or a shotgun can be counted on to break large supporting bones, allowing time needed for a kill shot. The handgun will almost without exception will be directed against the animal's head. My target therefore is not a 1000 pound bear, my target is a 100 pound head and a 100 pound target requires much less power than does a 1000 pound target. Therefore, the problem my handgun bullet must overcome relates to penetration rather than to power. A WFN or a SWC handgun bullet that has enough mass and velocity to fully penetrate the head, will stop the action if it passes through the right part of the head, which raises another problem. If we look at a bear skull, most wildlife defense situations relate to bears, although cougars and wolves can't be disregarded in some areas, we note that the brain pan is only the width of the snout and lies behind the eyes below an almost indiscernible forehead, and ahead of the ears. This is a relatively small target hidden within the great mass of the head. Learning the index marks for proper bullet placement is essential, although head on is the most likely scenario which provides a fairly simple aiming solution.
As to power, big power is of no disadvantage in the hunting handgun, but the defensive handgun is a reactionary tool which might have to be used without warning in a confined space. Under those circumstances it would not be out of the question that a fast followup shot might be required to solve the problem. The difficulty of making an accurate, fast, followup shot is directly related to the amount of blast and recoil the shooter must recover from before he can fire his subsequent shot.
What does the defensive handgun need to accomplish? If we work on the principal that a wild animal can't hurt you if it can't touch you, the role of the defensive handgun then is to stop the animal's forward progression. In the case of bear trouble, a rifle or a shotgun can be counted on to break large supporting bones, allowing time needed for a kill shot. The handgun will almost without exception will be directed against the animal's head. My target therefore is not a 1000 pound bear, my target is a 100 pound head and a 100 pound target requires much less power than does a 1000 pound target. Therefore, the problem my handgun bullet must overcome relates to penetration rather than to power. A WFN or a SWC handgun bullet that has enough mass and velocity to fully penetrate the head, will stop the action if it passes through the right part of the head, which raises another problem. If we look at a bear skull, most wildlife defense situations relate to bears, although cougars and wolves can't be disregarded in some areas, we note that the brain pan is only the width of the snout and lies behind the eyes below an almost indiscernible forehead, and ahead of the ears. This is a relatively small target hidden within the great mass of the head. Learning the index marks for proper bullet placement is essential, although head on is the most likely scenario which provides a fairly simple aiming solution.
Just a question from some one who's not up on loads etc. wouldn't a 10mm pistol loaded hot be comparable before you jump all over me Just Asking !!
I was just gonna say that, I bought a glock model 20 just for wilderness carry, but i cant shoot a glock to save my life, so if i cant hit that bugger I want something in steel so I can bash em in the face with it, I may die but the mother is gonna know he f**ked with me lmao. I can see the add now one used glock model 20 like new just some scrapes and blood stains from bear attack rounds fired unknown as owner died in bear attack. Ive got a super blackhawk convertible in.45lc/.45acp 4 5/8 barrel, but thinking of selling it and getting the sti longslide in 10mm keep pulling the trigger and mag changes till the f**ker drops
.44 magnum is the absolute minimum
I recall reading the results of a report commissioned by the Alaskan Dept. of Fish and Wildlife on the utility of pistol rounds for bear protection, and their conclusion was that the use of a pistol should be only for back-up, due to the performance limitations of pistol ammo.
The scenario they describe is, if you are working with your hands in the wilderness, you may not have enough time to reach for your rifle, so you had better have a large pistol holstered to your chest, and that pistol had better be chambered for 44 magnum, since, according to their testing, no other pistol ammo even approaches its performance.
If you have seen how fast grizzley runs, and just how big he is, then it's clearly a no-brainer. First line of defense is a carbine chambered for something big, fast, and that expands on contact. Second line of defense is a stainless S&W 44, shortened as much as is allowed to reduce weight, holstered across your chest, loaded with soft points or wad-cutters, and with the double-action reduced to, say, 6 pounds.
This data was generated before the popularization of .50 cal pistols however. I have not seen performance data for the 50, compared to rifle ammo. The pistol would be heavy to carry, for sure.
Let's be clear though - none of this matters unless we are talking Grizzly or Polar bear. Black bear would most likely run in the other direction, unless there were cubs or highly unusual circumstances, in which case the performance characteristics of the ammo are somewhat less stringent, but beyond that provided by a 10mm Glock. The only animal the 10mm Glock is proven effective against, is that which it was expressly designed for - bad guys. Anything bigger requires more energy to stop.
update:
---------
The report is available here:
treesearch.fs.fed.us/pubs/5573
.
I recall reading the results of a report commissioned by the Alaskan Dept. of Fish and Wildlife on the utility of pistol rounds for bear protection, and their conclusion was that the use of a pistol should be only for back-up, due to the performance limitations of pistol ammo.
The scenario they describe is, if you are working with your hands in the wilderness, you may not have enough time to reach for your rifle, so you had better have a large pistol holstered to your chest, and that pistol had better be chambered for 44 magnum, since, according to their testing, no other pistol ammo even approaches its performance.
If you have seen how fast grizzley runs, and just how big he is, then it's clearly a no-brainer. First line of defense is a carbine chambered for something big, fast, and that expands on contact. Second line of defense is a stainless S&W 44, shortened as much as is allowed to reduce weight, holstered across your chest, loaded with soft points or wad-cutters, and with the double-action reduced to, say, 6 pounds.
This data was generated before the popularization of .50 cal pistols however. I have not seen performance data for the 50, compared to rifle ammo. The pistol would be heavy to carry, for sure.
Let's be clear though - none of this matters unless we are talking Grizzly or Polar bear. Black bear would most likely run in the other direction, unless there were cubs or highly unusual circumstances, in which case the performance characteristics of the ammo are somewhat less stringent, but beyond that provided by a 10mm Glock. The only animal the 10mm Glock is proven effective against, is that which it was expressly designed for - bad guys. Anything bigger requires more energy to stop.
update:
---------
The report is available here:
treesearch.fs.fed.us/pubs/5573
.
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Redhawk 5.5"
I would recommend 5.5" barrel as a proven platform.
Boomer has informed us previously that 4.2" has certain reliability issues... sear, spring, etc... hopefully he could refresh my memory on it.
Slight gun issue might be irrelevant on the range, but in the bush- it may become matter of life and death.
Regards,
Dan
I would recommend 5.5" barrel as a proven platform.
Boomer has informed us previously that 4.2" has certain reliability issues... sear, spring, etc... hopefully he could refresh my memory on it.
Slight gun issue might be irrelevant on the range, but in the bush- it may become matter of life and death.
Regards,
Dan
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RememberTheSomme
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nova Scotia
I had the 629 with 4"bbl and it was a wrist wrinkler with 240 JHPs. Unless you can handle and be proficient with the firearm and not just making noise to comfort yourself, i'd probaly pack an early Winchester Ranger with pistol grip ,18" barrel,4 rounds of 000 Buck ,"none" up the spout. The Ranger in this config weighed 4.25 pounds. Some of the handguns mentioned here come close to that! That little Ranger on a comfy sling over my back would make me feel just fine, and those 4 rounds of buck when you can see the whites of his eyes will be an encouragement for the Bear to depart.
Remember its last resort at close range, you are not hunting for the animal, in that case scope a .500 S&W. If you do go with a large caliber Hand- gun, like some already stated practise with the full power loads and if you are really good with it , you ll have 50% of you ability come through in the encounter. Don't have .44 special tuning ,and then discover the crows are more in danger than the bear during the rapid fire, close encounter.
Remember its last resort at close range, you are not hunting for the animal, in that case scope a .500 S&W. If you do go with a large caliber Hand- gun, like some already stated practise with the full power loads and if you are really good with it , you ll have 50% of you ability come through in the encounter. Don't have .44 special tuning ,and then discover the crows are more in danger than the bear during the rapid fire, close encounter.
RememberTheSomme
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nova Scotia
I carried a S&W 629, 6" in the eighties. My brother had a Ruger Redhawk 7.5", and we spent a lot of time comparing. The Ruger could handle much hotter loads than my S&W, but I could always out shoot him with the S&W. After years of working in the bush, and never seeing a grizzly, I switched to a 10mm Colt. I learned to shoot it with really good accuracy, and it was much easier to pack.
I now own a Glock 20, and if I ever get another carry permit, I'll pack the Glock, with some decent handloads. It might lack 44 energy, but it has 11 rounds vs 6, and a better chance of hitting the target. It took me a few years, but I've decided Glock is the absolute best firearm, when the chips are down.
If I did end up in grizzly country, I'd dig out my old model 29 4". I've owned Rugers, but I just don't like them as much as S&W.
I missed this post and this was my thinking from start about the 10mm Glock but i didnt want to get into an Autoloader vs revolver , Glock vs S&W pissing match. Again i own a Glock but for what we are talking about , i'd stick to the lightweight pistol gripped shotgun 12 gauge. 4.25 lbs
What he said! How do you get this ATC?
The glock barrel doesnt like hard cast bullets, so i suggest an aftermarket barrel. From what ive seen on the net anyhow.
