44 Webley with Vihtavoury Tin Star

Fargone4sure

Fargone4sure

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I've been using Vihtavoury Tin Star for a number of different 44 Webleys. All versions of British Bulldogs, one H&R, one Iver Johnson, and one Belgium made.

44 Webley (or 442 Webley) according to Wikipedia used a 200gr bullet at 700fps, but I doubt that was ever achieved out of a 2 1/2" barrel of the bulldogs.

I found info on a fellow loading 205gr bullets and 18gr of fff, and getting 530fps, which apparently is close to original loadings.. I think this is a more realistic velocity.

The short 44 Bulldog round once available from the Old Western Scrounger apparently used a 168gr bullet at 390fps.

Using this information as a rough guide, I started working up loads using Vihtavoury Tin Star. I chose this powder due to its bulky properties, and a burn rate slower than Trail Boss. And thought I'd share my results.

Let me state that I do not make any recommendations on the appropriateness or safety of these loads in any other gun than mine. I have no way to check pressures, so only provide this for information of what I have done. Keep in mind, that bores of these guns can vary widely, and this can have profound affects on pressure and velocities. Although these loads appear safe in my guns, they may well not be in any other gun.

All loads used Hornady 180gr .430" lead cowboy bullets, full length 44 Russian brass (which my particular guns can chamber) and Dominion LP primers, with Vihtavoury Tin Star.

2.0 gr = poor and incomplete ignition
3.0 gr = 275fps
3.2 gr = 345fps
3.4 gr = 360fps
3.8 gr = 385fps
4.0 gr = 435fps
4.2 gr = 450fps
4.4 gr = 460fps

This is where I stopped increasing loads, and in fact wouldn't have case capacity to go much higher, even with the full length 44 Russian brass.

ADDED:
Just tested a 44 webley load in a Webley RIC. These have a slightly larger bore than my various other American and Belgian guns I've had. Jethunters 200gr heeled 44 webley bullets are a good fit.
Note that the RIC cannot chamber full length 44 Russian brass, so I was interested to see what difference using brass shortened to proper 44 webley length would make.

Powder used was Tin Star. Bullet is Jethunters 200gr heeled.

4.0gr - 635fps

Obviously the combination of less case capacity and longer barrel have a huge effect on velocities.
 
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Interesting, I have a Belgian .442 in good shape, did you fire these loads out of your Belgian? How was the accuracy? Mine has the 2.5" barrel. Jethunter sells the heeled lead bullets for these with very soft lead!
 
Yes, I've been shooting these out of my Belgian, and it has a 2.5" as well. Accuracy with the Hornady .430 is excellent. I use a bunch of Jethunters bullets in various calibers, and they are really good, but the Hornady ones allow easy crimping, whereas the heeled bullets can be a challenge.
 
My Belgian .442. Slugs out at .4135,,, !? Which is odd I know, Jethunter suggested to find boolits for .41 cal. But now I have seen he has the heeled which may work out in mine.
 
Fargone4sure said:
Wow, I've never seen one with that tight of bore. I think Jets heeled 44 bullets are too big for that bore.
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Yea I think they are .420, I cleaned the barrel and it looks ok frosted and dark but good rifling, I was thinking of using crud cutter or Britt bore on it to see if there was buildup of some sort! I never heard of a Belgian .41 but could be even though it was sold as .442 and the .44 Russian case fits snugly in the cylinder!
 
I have an Iver Johnson in 44 Webley, the bore slugs out at .430 so I am using dead soft .430 bullets at 200gr loaded inside a trimmer down 44 special case. Everything is ready to go but still no loading, for my gun I was advised by a gunsmith to use blackpowder only so I plan on FFFg slightly compressed which should be about 10gr.

Is there any documentation on Tin Star pressured to compare to black powder? I am curious as to the pressure curve.
 
I've never seen info on the pressure curve of Tin Star. Which is why I stopped short of the velocities possible with 18gr of fff. I would bet your 10gr fff loads will be under 400fps. But with even the highest Tin Star load the casings fall out of the cylinder with no need to poke them, so I am guessing the peak pressures are still quite low. But of course there are so many variables it is impossible to know for sure.

My Iver Johnson slugged similar to yours if memory serves me. I always used 3gr of Tin Star in it as a light plinking load. That load had about the same recoil as a 22.

One thing for sure, is that no gunsmith is ever going to recommend any smokeless powder in a black powder gun. But as per the stickies on the subject, it can be done. But requires a good deal of caution and discretion.
 
A number of people have been pushing me towards Trail Boss but I have seen the pressure curves on that stuff and it spikes really quickly, which is not something that BP does.

It is an 1878 gun and a small one, I don't want to lose part of the gun or part of my hand.
 
I love Trail Boss, but not in these forged iron bulldogs. I think its burn rate is way to fast for use in them. The burn rate for Tin Star is much slower. For me, it is the only smokeless I will use in them. Quite possibly something along the lines of Unique could be used. But given the limited strength of these guns, I like the more precise metering and bulk of Tin Star.
 
Hirsch Precision has it in stock, but others probably do as well. Note that Tin Star is also called N32C.
The price might scare you, but it is for .5kg, which is almost exactly the same as 2 cans of Trail Boss.
 
Fargone4sure said:
Prophet River and North pro Sports also carry Vihtavoury. I think Prophet River has the best price on Tin Star.
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Thanks, I will pick some up! What dies did you use for the .442? I also have a really nice Belgian .450 with awesome grips, and the front blade sight is placed half way back on the barrel, I was told it was done to legally get the 2.5" barrel into Germany and then the owner cut the barrel back shorter, which at the time was illegal there! Mine was shipped to Argentina and never cut!
 
You could use 44 special or 44 mag dies. But generally you never have to resize .442 Webley, and because I don't have any 44 dies, I've been using 45acp resize die to punch the old primers, and using the 45acp expander dies to bell the case mouth, set so as not to over bell the case. And using the bullet seating die as well. Then using a 303 resize die with the primer punch removed to taper crimp. Odd way to go for sure, but works well.
 
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