45-70,444,450???

Have a scoped #3 Ruger 45/70 and 1970's scoped Marlin .444 22" brl........wouldn't sell either of them.......as they're quite accurate.......to each his own preferance....

Shoot round ball and shot loads out of Both.......round ball in 444 to 2200 fps 3 shots 100yds/2.0 in. ... at 1000 fps/ 1 inch at 50 yds/3 shots.......Ruger will do similar.....

..the 2 round ball load will give you a" double tap" about 1.5 in. apart..in either caliber at 25 yds....

shot loads in both...good for grouse to 20 yds.......

..concurr that 450 marlin probably best for those who don't reload...

hs4570/444........your mileage may vary
 
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444shooter said:
I just bought a 444P Outfitter, and a Bushnell red dot scope will be going on it. Then it's party time :p
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I have a A 444 Marlin I've topped with a Bushnell VI, 1.5-4.5 and a set of Weaver pivot mounts. Works well, loves Hornady 265gr and I'm 'playing' with 250gr GC & 325gr GC cast. It's a keeper!
 
tucker05 said:
They are all good, but IMHO the 444 is the better performer if you are going to use cast in your reloads.

45/70 is a girls rifle:dancingbanana:
450 is for gramas:runaway:
The only true mans rifle is the 444:eek:
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Tucker I'm thinking that you have never squeezed the trigger on a 45-70 or the 450 Marlin if you are calling them girls guns..... ;)

The 444 is by far the most anemic of the 3 rounds in every aspect that you can compare cartridges in. Where the 444 stops in performance is where the .458 cal rounds just starting to perform.

It's like saying a 44mag has more capabilities than a 454 Casull. The 444 can't even begin to compare in performance/recoil/TKO. If anything the 444 is a cartridge that I would get for my wife who is recoil shy... :D
 
My wrist and shoulder hurts just reading this thread...and somehow my teeth too. :p
Go with the 45-70.
You can shoot .44 mag through a .444 or is that bS? that's what i heard.
 
According to Hogdon's online data, it's possible to drive a 300 grain bullet to 2142 fps, about 100 fps faster out of a 45-70 than a 444 that they list at 2082 with that same bullet.
Special note
The above 45-70 was fired from a weak trapdoor Springfield rifle.

Fired from a
Ruger, a 45-70 300 grain can be driven to 2400 fps (Source Lyman #47)

I can't seem to find data on 500 grain bullets for the 444.... now why would that be?
Because they are not generally available?

a 500 grain out of a 45-70 Ruger can be driven at 1879 fps {source Lyman #47}
 
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No contest. The 45/70 and 450 Marlin are practically interchangeable. At the same pressures, they outdo the 444 Marlin for every bullet weight, and make use of a much larger range of cheap and readily available bullets.

As for chambered guns, that's another matter of personal taste, but I'd stay well clear of anything with "micro-groove" rifling, unless you want to fuss endlessly trying to find bullets (especially cast) that will work.
 
The .45-70 is the last logical step before going to a true heavy - 500@2400 - which is the performance level of several .45 caliber rifles such as the .460 G&A, .450 Watts, .450 Dakota, or the .450 Rigby. The .45-70 has seen a rebirth with modern propellants, and it's moderate velocity allows the shooter to take advantage of heavy for caliber flat nosed hard cast bullets, which it can be argued, out perform the terminal performance of jacketed bullets at the same velicity.

The .444 was a nice idea, because at the time of it's introduction the only strong .45-70 in current production was the Ruger #1. Today, when deciding between the two cartridges, the correct answer can be found with the help of a little visual stimuli - such as watching a .444 case drop inside a .45-70 case.

The .450 Marlin - formerly the .458 American - is to my way of thinking, ballistically, a bad idea. If one considers the .458 Winchester to be lacking - and I do - what can be achieved by shortening it? Marlin's concept of a high pressure .45-70 round that would not chamber in Trapdoor Springfields has "lawyer merit" I suppose.
 
I wasn't aware that the 450 Marlin is based on the 458Win Mag case.
Barnes originally cut it back( the 458) to 2" to give it North Americasn hunters a more versitile cartridge for heavy game in North America, one that could be loaded in Bolt actions to higher pressures that the 45/70 can be.
The case is heavier than the 45/70.

This info is for those that are not aware of the history of the 458 American...

That doesn't mean I am going to run out and buy myslif one, because I shoot cast and black in my 45.70 single shots!!:dancingbanana:

Cat
 
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Handloading - .45-70 all the way.

If memory serves, the .458 Win Mag. 2" & .450 Marlin, while quite similar, are NOT the same. The .450 Marlin has a wider belt, and consequently, it wont chamber in a .458.
 
If I had the money I would be adding another Marlin 45-70 to my collection but this time instead of the 1895GS that I have now and that I used this summer to shoot the heads off of gophers at 80 yards with 300gr Hornady HP's :dancingbanana: I would get the new s/s black/grey laminate stocked XLR then shorten the barrel from 24" to 20" and get the mag tube extended.

"Oh Yeah" that would be totally awesome.....
 
I was just trying to get a rise out of all you 45/70 fans when I posted my comments:eek: . I does seem obvious that many of you folks that love to flame the 444 are doing it from you armchairs and have never really worked with one. Let me assure you that loads posted in the manuals only take into account jacketed bullets, which in my opinion are too light. If you want to play around a bit with cast and do a few mods to your rifle a 444 will easily push a 340 grn bullet @ 2300 fps and a 405 @ 2100 (do the ballistics). Give Marshall Stantons articles a read at beartooth bullets.
Yes I do own both calibers and yes the 45/70 wins hands down IF you choose bullet weights over 420 grns, but why? the punishment is not worth it and the tradoff marginal at best in killing power. That said my 444 sees more milage than my 45/70

Screw up - checked data 2300 and 2100 respectively not 2500 and 2200 (always check data or ensure you are awake before posting)
 
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tucker05 said:
... If you want to play around a bit with cast and do a few mods to your rifle a 444 will easily push a 340 grn bullet @ 2500 fps and a 405 @ 2200 (do the ballistics). Give Marshall Stantons articles a read at beartooth bullets....
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Perhaps you are looking to get another "rise", or you actually believe that, but I say without reservation that those claims are complete and utter BS.

Those are 458 Win Mag numbers (I have one), which is a much larger case, and a larger bore. Sure you can "get" those numbers from a 444 Marlin, but at pressures that will blow your lever gun into its separate parts in short order.

Best of Luck!
 
Andy said:
Perhaps you are looking to get another "rise", or you actually believe that, but I say without reservation that those claims are complete and utter BS.

Those are 458 Win Mag numbers (I have one), which is a much larger case, and a larger bore. Sure you can "get" those numbers from a 444 Marlin, but at pressures that will blow your lever gun into its separate parts in short order.

Best of Luck!
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+1
I wouldn't even try this out of a Ruger #1.
 
Mr. Andy

........speaking of B S.......in your previous post you suggest that anything with "microgroove" is inaccurate and with cast "fussy" and its best to stay away from such.......

Can't speak for marlins (Microgroove) in any caliber other than 444...they shoot jacketed 240 gr..265 gr...300 gr to the inch at 3 shots/100yds and require no more load work up than any other cartridge....
Cast bullets in .444 microgroove just need to be .430 to .432 to shoot the same inch with appropriate loads.......just like all my .30 cals.(non Micro rifles) prefer .310 over .308 diameter cast....

you're just perpetuating the same B S you "read" about in the past.....if you ever shot a 444 micro and didn't get accuracy i"d suggest your "abilities " are somewhat lacking.....

do I think my 444 is more powerful than my ruger 45/70.......Nope !


hs4570........your mileage may vary
 
Andy said:
As for chambered guns, that's another matter of personal taste, but I'd stay well clear of anything with "micro-groove" rifling, unless you want to fuss endlessly trying to find bullets (especially cast) that will work.
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I'm going to guess that you've never owned a mircro-groove Marlin Andy ;)

The micro-groove rifling was designed to shoot jacketed bullets more accurately than the old ballard rifling. I have Marlins with both types of rifling and will agree that the deep cut ballard rifling is way more consistantly accurate with cast. With some fiddling around though I have a 265 grain cast load for my microgrooved 375 Winchester Marlin that groups MOA all day. :)

As far as jacketed bullets go in 30-30, 375 Winchester, 44 magnum, and 45-70 micro-groove rifles; my experience is that they all shoot all jacketed bullets that I have tryed very well. :cool:

Oh and on the question at hand, my vote goes for the 45-70 as the best choice.

I do want a triple four some day tho just for s**ts and giggles. I see some merit with a slightly flatter trajectory, but still a serious thumper with the right bullet. Just wish the bullet selection was better. Would like to see Speer and Sierra try some 275 or 300 grainers. :cool:
 
I almost bought a .44 mag Marlin lever but it never went through...are the .44 mags worth anything for this kind of gun, or is it a "go big or go home" type deal?
 
44 mag is on the light side, but acceptable for deer or so. The 45-70 is a whole 'nuther ball game, easily suitable for elk, moose & brownies (and dangerous game, some - not me - contend)
 
All these guys that bash the .444 are just plain jealous. They wish they had one :p
Seriously though, it will do anything the other two will. And you don't need to handload either.

Hornady LeverEvolution :

444 Mar, 265 grain - 2325/3180 @ muzzle, 1971/2285 @ 100 yds, 1625/1606 @ 200 yds, 1380/1120 @ 300 yds.

.45-70, 325 grain - 2050/3032 @ muzzle, 1729/2158 @ 100 yds, 1450/1516 @ 200 yds, 1225/1083 @ 300 yds.
 
Andy said:
Perhaps you are looking to get another "rise", or you actually believe that, but I say without reservation that those claims are complete and utter BS.

Those are 458 Win Mag numbers (I have one), which is a much larger case, and a larger bore. Sure you can "get" those numbers from a 444 Marlin, but at pressures that will blow your lever gun into its separate parts in short order.

Best of Luck!
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+1, stay the hell away from me when you're firing that thing.

Maybe this counts as 'getting a rise' out of me, but I think it has to be said, in order to potentially dissuade someone from attempting this and blowing up a rifle in their face. WHAT YOU'RE SUGGESTING IS FOOLISH, AND DANGEROUS!

While it IS possible to get (slightly) faster MV's with cast than jacketed at similar pressure levels, to take them to THAT level is just plain foolish. Plus - if you're willing to risk your health with ridiculously over-pressure loads, you could always load the snot out of a 450 or 45-70 to the same pressure levels your poor 444 is doing and it would still run circles around it.
 
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