45-70,444,450???

I have been using the same 444S for 20 years now with no trouble. If you read the post I stated you must modify your rifle somewhat. Essentially this means opening up the loading gate and extractor to allow the rifle to accept a 2.64 OAL round. The oldtimers who taught me this have done the same thing going on 30+ years and not one of them has ever had a gun come apart.
Given the 444 is limited by case capacity and to a great extent todays burn rates (much like many of the overbore magnums were until the advent of slower burning powders) - 444 thrives on powder burn rates somewhere between H322 and H335 . If the case capacity is increased more powder can be added thereby increasing velocity without having a determental effect on pressure.
Yes, the loads are max, and made up on a gun to gun basis, however the primers are not flattend excesively and there is no cratering and case expansion is within tolerance. Shockingly enough we are getting >20 reloads/ case:eek:
It always surprises me to find a number of nay sayers who have never tried a 444 let aside load for one become a armchair expert. I do not have a death wish and neither do the 15 or so folks I know that load for the 444.
Is the 444 a 45/70? - NO!! Is a 308 a 30-06? Each caliber/ rifle has it's own unique attributes and it is a fruitless endeavor to compare. Everyone will have his/ her favorite for whatever reason and in the end it all comes down to putting the shot where you want it.
enough said
 
tucker05 said:
I was just trying to get a rise out of all you 45/70 fans when I posted my comments:eek: . I does seem obvious that many of you folks that love to flame the 444 are doing it from you armchairs and have never really worked with one. Let me assure you that loads posted in the manuals only take into account jacketed bullets, which in my opinion are too light. If you want to play around a bit with cast and do a few mods to your rifle a 444 will easily push a 340 grn bullet @ 2300 fps and a 405 @ 2100 (do the ballistics). Give Marshall Stantons articles a read at beartooth bullets.
Yes I do own both calibers and yes the 45/70 wins hands down IF you choose bullet weights over 420 grns, but why? the punishment is not worth it and the tradoff marginal at best in killing power. That said my 444 sees more milage than my 45/70
Click to expand...

I've done lots of work with the 45-70 and cast bullets. Believe me, any gains you think you've made with the 444 can easily be beat with the 45-70. I have a number of members here as whitnesses, that have fired a few of my 1886 Winchester loads.
By the way, Lyman lists the top load for a 20 grain cast bullet as 1590 fps, and a 240 grain jacketted at 2242 in the 444. If you are going beyond the safety limits, then you sir are IMO a fool, or a TROLL.
 
Well - like you say, capacity is king. But when you're getting 458 win mag KE's out of a much lower capacity cartridge (even when the bullet is seated long) - and one with a MUCH higher pressure specification to boot - then something doesn't square.
 
Here's what was originally posted:

Originally Posted by tucker05
... If you want to play around a bit with cast and do a few mods to your rifle a 444 will easily push a 340 grn bullet @ 2500 fps and a 405 @ 2200 (do the ballistics). Give Marshall Stantons articles a read at beartooth bullets....

Now after a few smartass comments he revised it to 340 gr at 2300 fps and a 405 @ 2100 without comment :rolleyes: Nice try, but the numbers are still out of whack.

Hopeless - I'm outa here.
 
Last edited:
I can't say anything about the .444 in a Marlin, but I have seen many times a 300 grain jacketed bullet pass 2600 fps in a Ruger .45/70. A 350 at 2500+ fps as well chronographed. With that said, I would run far and fast from anyone trying this in a Marlin lever gun.
 
holy crap i sure opened a can of worms this time! lol

thanx for all your input guys im still undecided. a while back i looked at a 45-70 guide gun and loved the feel of it. thats prolly what ill end up going with.

thanx for the info

ttyl
matt
 
mjcurry said:
holy crap i sure opened a can of worms this time! lol

thanx for all your input guys im still undecided. a while back i looked at a 45-70 guide gun and loved the feel of it. thats prolly what ill end up going with.

thanx for the info

ttyl
matt
Click to expand...

Just buy a .444 and you will be tickety boo ;)
Never mind what those other guys say...
 
45-70 still tops for KO at 200 yds.

Load One Load Two
Weight in grains 265 Weight in grains 325
Velocity in fps 1380 Velocity in fps 1083
Caliber in inches .429 Caliber in inches .458

Energy 444: 1120 45-70: 846
Momentum 444: 52 45-70: 50
Taylor KO 444 : 22 45-70: 23


Just try it: http://www.handloads.com/calc/quick.asp
 
Last edited:
Heavily loaded 45/70s have Taylor knockout values of up to 60, probably have pressure values similar to .444 factory loads. ie; 480gr. hard cast WFN gc at 1900fps, try the math one more time!
 
The problem with these heavy loads is that my dentures fell on the ground each time I pull the trigger...:p

ben hunchak said:
Heavily loaded 45/70s have Taylor knockout values of up to 60, probably have pressure values similar to .444 factory loads. ie; 480gr. hard cast WFN gc at 1900fps, try the math one more time!
Click to expand...
 
That was a good article and I had considered buying the 525gr Pile Drivers in the past for my Marlin 1895GS 45-70.

I didn't because I went with Jae-Bok Young's 550gr Crater's I am getting 1580fps with these bullets.

You actually get less recoil with the real heavy bullets at these velocities then the lighter 400gr loads that are now so common for the 45-70.

Another thing that hasn't been covered either is that there is more metal surrounding the 444 case than a 45-70 in a Marlin lever action rifle so theoretically a Marlin chambered in 444 can handle far more pressures than a Marlin rifle chambered in 45-70. The same goes for a S&W 44mag handgun that can handle very high 44mag loads but take that same S&W revolver and chamber it in 45 Colt and due to less chamber wall thickness it can not handle top pressure 45 colt loads you are limited to medium pressure loads.

Even though the 45-70 works on lower safe pressures the 444 still can't compare..... :p

I do have a comment for all of you 444 fans.....

Nobody that is pro 45-70 has stated that the 444 isn't a good cartridge or that it isn't capable of taking anything in North America.

What is being said is anything that the 444 Marlin can do the 45-70 can do better.

Sorry guys but it's just that simple facts are facts....

Also in the real world comparing energy figures especially in regards to slow heavy bullets including handguns loads just doesn't work out.........

Heavy slow bullets kill with penetration and do not need to expand, a wide meplat creates the size of the wound cavity not hydralic shock that energy figures represent in regards to higher velocity rounds.
 
A 550 at 1580 fps would recoil slightly more than a 405 at 2000 fps

49.39KE and 19.34fps vs 44.46KE and 18.35fps in an 8.5lb gun. Still enough to get your attention, but nothing crazy like a 458 throwing 500's at 2200 fps: 69KE and 21.01fps in a 10lb gun. The 444, tossing 300's at 2100fps (assuming this is a safe load, I have no idea) hits you with 26.40KE and 14.40fps of recoil (8.5lb gun) - (which is about the same as the figures you'd get from something like a Whelen or 7mm mag in a gun of similar weight)
 
Last edited:
Guys at Beartooth are pushing 355gr bullets at 2075fps. Some of them have dropped water buffalo. One report tells of a buffalo hit once and staggered 10yds before collapsing dead. Can't see anyone needing more power than that ;)
 
just 2 bits:


Remember that if the 444, with it's smaller case head and longer case, was loaded to the same pressure as the 45's the 444 would have less bolt thrust and more steel around the case.

Sling shot bullet drop is another thing with real heavy bullets going so slow they hit hard but don't forget about the HIT part of it.

One of my hunting guns is a 444 and I wouldn't want more of a rainbow than a 265 hornady going ~2400 safely.

But if you don't actually shoot at variable ranges....
 
prosper said:
A 550 at 1580 fps would recoil slightly more than a 405 at 2000 fps

49.39KE and 19.34fps vs 44.46KE and 18.35fps in an 8.5lb gun. Still enough to get your attention, but nothing crazy like a 458 throwing 500's at 2200 fps: 69KE and 21.01fps in a 10lb gun. The 444, tossing 300's at 2100fps (assuming this is a safe load, I have no idea) hits you with 26.40KE and 14.40fps of recoil (8.5lb gun) - (which is about the same as the figures you'd get from something like a Whelen or 7mm mag in a gun of similar weight)
Click to expand...


I was not refering to computer program results I am refering to actual felt recoil. The 550gr bullets felt recoil is less than 400gr bullets @ 1950fps.

My shoulder and neck tell me this. ;)
 
444shooter said:
Guys at Beartooth are pushing 355gr bullets at 2075fps. Some of them have dropped water buffalo. One report tells of a buffalo hit once and staggered 10yds before collapsing dead. Can't see anyone needing more power than that ;)
Click to expand...

Hunting African, Asian or Australian buffalo is a whole different game with different circumstances compared to game hunted here. An African PH will take you out after buffalo if you want to be armed with a .22 Hornet, because it just means that he'll dump it for you with his heavy rifle. If you enjoy getting slammed, just go onto Accurate Reloading or Nitro Express and suggest to the boys there that in your opinion the .444 is all anyone needs for buffalo.

A while back a guy made the suggestion that buffalo could/should be hunted with a .45-70, and he hasn't been back there much. I personally am of the opinion that a buffalo could be taken with a .45-70 when properly loaded, especially when we consider the ballistics one gets from factory loaded .458's, but most experienced bufffalo hunters consider it a stunt. The thing about hunting buffalo which makes it attractive isn't what happens when you make a perfect shot on an unsuspecting animal - it's about what might happen on the follow up of a wounded animal in thick cover. Under those circumstances you will want more.
 
Last edited:
mjcurry said:
holy crap i sure opened a can of worms this time! lol

thanx for all your input guys im still undecided. a while back i looked at a 45-70 guide gun and loved the feel of it. thats prolly what ill end up going with.
Click to expand...
Good Choice........but for what it's Worth ALL of the 3 will Dump any Critter you mentioned (moose,bear and deer) on it's ARS ! ;)

My personnal Choice would be the 45-70 as well :cool:
 
I will give it another STIR:D ....get the 45-70 or 450 marlin if you want BIG bang....

BUT the 444 is the most accrurate lever on the market...

p.s

I doubt any Moose, Bear or Elk is gonna know the difference if he has been shot with any of those cartridges???


http://www.marlinowners.com/board/index.php



Here is a pic of what mine will do...

401159.JPG
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom