.45-70 trapdoor carbine - barnes bullet?

Brobee

Brobee

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Hi there everyone!

I have just acquired my first big-bore antique (a .45-70 springfield trapdoor carbine...I also have a .45-70 rolling block project I'm working on but it will still be a while until she's ready) and I'm pretty excited!

I'm getting set up to load for the old girl, and am wondering if there is any collective experience you guys/gals would be able to share regarding whether or not it would be safe to use hodgdon's trapdoor load data (thinking either Varget or H4895...I have lots, and it looks like they're both slower than the 2400 powder mentioned in the sticky thread up top). What I'm wondering is if anyone has any experience using Barnes Bullets in their antique rifles? Specifically I'm thinking of either the 300gr or 350gr TSX bullets or the .250 flat nosed tsx.

Anyone have any experience in this realm?

Thanks for sharing!

Brobee
 
You NEVER shoot jacketed bullets of ANY kind in original black-powder rifles. The jackets are MUCH too hard for the old soft-iron barrels and will wer the rifling at a fearsome rate.

You use soft-lead CAST bullets.

For a powder choice, if you must have smokeless, SR-4759 is the powder of choice. For a .45-70, you would use about 26 grains by weight of SR-4759.
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I appreciate the perspective!

As I plan on re-barrelling the old girl with a contemporary barrel (contoured correctly), I'm not so much worried about the rifling as I am about the strength of the action and engraving pressure effected by the solid copper bullets.

I don't mind getting set up to cast...but my curiosity was piqued reviewing hodgdon loading data for .45-70 trapdoor and seeing that they have data for the sierra jacketed bullets.

Cheers,

Brobee
 
Brobee said:
ctive!

As I plan on re-barrelling the old girl with a contemporary barrel (contoured correctly), I'm not so much worried about the rifling as I am about the strength of the action and engraving pressure effected by the solid copper bullets.
Click to expand...

You should try the existing barrel first assuming it is not grossly pitted or cut off short etc. The Lyman reloading manuals list separate loads for trapdoors which take into account their lesser strength.

If you are certain that you want to rebarrel, try going to 38-55. I rebarreled an action only, made a new extractor and very much like the result. No recoil, very accurate and wins turkeys at the local turkey shoot.

cheers mooncoon
 
I need to say something here...having collected Springfield Armory firearms since 1980 I have an observation.
First...shooting a trapdoor 45-70 is, without doubt, the most satisfying and enjoyable endeavor...within reason. Firing jacketed bullets through an old trapdoor regardless of condition is not a very prudent idea....I have to concur with "smellie" on that one...though will suggest an alloy bullet a bit harder then pure lead. If your go this route get some Ox-Yoke Wonder Wads to protect the base of the bullet...it will do wonders. Firing smokeless powder through the same gun is also not the best idea, though there are plenty of loads quoted which work just fine...try IMR Trail Boss...it works very well, this is what I use and it performs very well...the trapdoor rifle I use likes to eat Sharps!!!!
Second...re-barreling your trapdoor. A few things to consider. Depending on the condition and whether gun has been bubba'd will determine if there is collector value. Yeah I know some guys are not collectors, though bear in mind you can buy a new made trapdoor that is ready to go...so why mess with an original. The other thing to bear in mind is the date of manufacture. If the gun is a late manufacture...1878 to 1893 then the action may be OK to use for a project...if the gun is any earlier the action may not be as strong as you may require. Early in the production of the trapdoor they used, what collectors term as a "High Arch" breechblock, used 1873 to 1877. later models used a "Low Arch" breechblock, which actually is much stronger. Late in the production of the trapdoor the armory experimented with a "Positive Cam" locking mechanism, which they also used on the later 30 caliber trapdoors in 1894. The P.C. model is exceedingly rare and is a bit difficult to identify without detailed photos. Another point is that the Springfield Research Newsletter has published books on the serial numbers of issued martial arms including the trapdoor...I have all four volumes of the books...who knows your gun may be listed in the books.
Third. Choosing a caliber to re-barrel to. I agree that 38-55 is a good round I have a trapdoor built into a half stock Hawken style rifle with peep sights etc....it is a black powder cartridge rifle match winner and has taken its share of trophies. I would lean though to the 45-70 as it is the easiest round to reload and find components for, plus the versatility of the round leads all others.

The important thing is if the gun is beyond salvage as a collectors guns, then a project is a viable answer as long as the gun is of later vintage.
Have fun with your project.
 
That is an awesomely informative post Alonzo....thank you very much!

The gun in question was represented to me as made in 1873. It has been tastefully bubba-ed from it's factory condition to closely resemble a carbine, so I suspect it's collector value has already been lost, ergo my interest in the re-barreling project. From what you describe though the action would be early-vintage and is likely not strong enough.....I'll start looking for a later vintage one for my re-barreling project and in the meantime get set up to cast/load with some sort of alloyed lead.

As an interim bullet solution - would you have a recommendation of a commercially available bullet I could use to load with?

Re Trailboss....looking at the Hodgdon data it appears that trailboss will have higher pressure than some of the more conventional smokeless such as varget or benchmark....is your recommendation still to start with trailboss? I have lots of it kicking around too, so it is also convenient for me however I was thinking that the lower pressures associated with the other powders might be more appropriate?

Cheers, and thanks again for the great post!

Brobee
 
Brobee said:
That is an awesomely informative post Alonzo....thank you very much!

The gun in question was represented to me as made in 1873. It has been tastefully bubba-ed from it's factory condition to closely resemble a carbine, so I suspect it's collector value has already been lost, ergo my interest in the re-barreling project. From what you describe though the action would be early-vintage and is likely not strong enough.....I'll start looking for a later vintage one for my re-barreling project and in the meantime get set up to cast/load with some sort of alloyed lead.

As an interim bullet solution - would you have a recommendation of a commercially available bullet I could use to load with?

Re Trailboss....looking at the Hodgdon data it appears that trailboss will have higher pressure than some of the more conventional smokeless such as varget or benchmark....is your recommendation still to start with trailboss? I have lots of it kicking around too, so it is also convenient for me however I was thinking that the lower pressures associated with the other powders might be more appropriate?

Cheers, and thanks again for the great post!

Brobee
Click to expand...

By doing a search for reloading data on Trail Boss, there is a very narrow range of loads listed with specific bullets. My loads began with thestarting load and have not increased...they are low velocity and pressures are not too high. I used to burn SR4759 in the trapdoor though had to use a dacron filler about 1 inch square. This load also had a hunger on for the Sharps and could regularly feed on them.
The rifle I was using was an 1883 vintage rifle which was originally a bubba'd gun...I extended the stock back to military configuration and kept the 5th pattern 1879 rear sight as it gave a very clean sight picture...better the the earlier 1879 sight patterns..
Springfield used the 1873 model designation marking until 1883. There was a transition period where the armory was marking breech-block with the 1884 date and were still using the 1879 rear sight...there is confusion amongst many that the Buffington rear sight came out in 1884 and is only used on the 1884 marked trapdoors...NOT TRUE!! A lot of fellows insist that their 1873 marked trapdoor was really made in 1873...no really correct...it all depends on serial number.
Depending on the serial number of your gun it may have been made between 1873 and 1882...if it is a 4 digit serial number it could be pre 1875, a 5 digit gun could be pre 1878...1882 guns with the 1873 dated breechblock can still be numbered into the 190,000 to 210,000 serial number range.
Cheers
 
"...soft-iron barrels..." Trapdoor rifle or carbine barrels are steel.
"...plan on re-barrelling the old girl..." That'll drop the value of a vintage Carbine by half.
Use the data on Hodgdon's site for Trapdoors, but reduce 'em for a carbine.
A Trapdoor Carbine didn't use 70 grains of BP either. They used 55 grains. Shooting a Carbine with 70 grains and a 405 grain cast bullet hurts. Trust me. I tried it, long ago.
 
Ok...the rifle arrived this evening. It is pretty much the coolest gun I own.

Serial number is in the 1500xx range.

Alonzo...the book you recommended is also en-route...expected delivery sometime in February :(

I've also taken the plunge and decided to try my hand at bullet casting. On the way home this evening I picked up a bunch of 100% pure lead alloy bars and a couple of 95/5 tin/antimony bars, a lyman "master casting kit" (also bought a couple of top punches and sizing dies), and a lee 405gr hollow base mould.

I'll give the book that came with the kit a good read this evening, then perhaps dive in this coming weekend!

Any recommendations from the crowd?

Cheers,

Brobee
 
casting

hi jason, glad to see the 45 70 bug bit you as it did me, for black powder loads, i use what i discussed the other evening with you on my other reply
i use the 70 gr load with a 405 gr or a 425 gr bullet of soft lead, use spg bullet lube when you lube your bullets, i size my bullets to 459, but trapdoors ran diff bore dia, so id maybe have it slugged and then you can determin what you are going to size and lube them to!

hard cast bullets to me are better for hunting practices, soft lead for target loads, however a soft lead slug out of a trapdoorof 400gr or so, at 1200fps, will flatten anything on this continent im sure of it, but i load doff for my handi rifle, which has the short barrel, and velocities arent always what the book says, but its still a hoot to shoot, id consult the net, google trapdoor loads for 4570, should find lots of info, and the lyman manuals have all kinds of lead bullet loads

let me know if something stumps ya, for best accuracy, after bullets have been cast, id weight them for weight and group the ones closer to each other in one box, and id start using those first, this will also be better for more consistency in your targets!!

cheers buddy,
rod.... happy holidays
 
"...70 gr load with a 405 gr..." You really don't want to use 70 grains in a Carbine. Did it, long before there was an Internet. It hurts to shoot. The issue Carbine load used 55 grains of BP.
 
sunray said:
"...70 gr load with a 405 gr..." You really don't want to use 70 grains in a Carbine. Did it, long before there was an Internet. It hurts to shoot. The issue Carbine load used 55 grains of BP.
Click to expand...

Yup, did the same thing years ago...it took two weeks for my eyes to come un-crossed...can still clap with my shoulder blades on a good day, it was quite the thunder stick with that load. We were all young and foolish in those days
My fave BP load was 50 FFg and a cast lyman 457193 of wheel weights. This worked in carbine and rifle. Tried a using a drop tube for a heavier charge, accuracy was no as consistent though. Always used an Ox-Yoke Wonder wad behind the bullet.
Most modern 45-70 cases will never hold 70 grains...you are lucky to get 65 with a 36" drop tube, and this fill the case to the case mouth.
 
I also have an assortment of original Springfield trapdoors,Rolling blocks ,rifles and carbines in 45-70 and 50-70
Once a month we have a military shoot and I usually shoot my 1884 Ramrod.
Occasionally I shoot using black powder (like to throw up the smoke screen and get an advantage over the guys next to me shooting modern turn bolts). I use 68grns 2f with 405grn hand cast softish lead with a fiber wad over powder and a grease wad under the bullet I find I dont have any fouling issues this way and the barrel comes cleaner quicker.
I also use Trail boss when I will not have the time to clean the rifle or the brass right after the shoot .With trail boss I use 12.6 grns (no powder or grease wad) and using the buffington sights shooting at M27 targets it groups 25 shots within 4"-5 at 100yrds.
With a target having a visible center this can be brought closer to a 2-3 " group at 100yrds.
I also have 500 grn mold that actually throws 505-510grns and I use 12 grns of Trail Boss with this using a card wad under the bullet.
It is surprising the different feel of the gun using the 505 vs the 405 and the accuracy is very similar at 100yrds.
When I worked up the trail boss load I used a chrony and I found the velocity 980ftps after 12.6 grns did not increase so this is where I held it too.
 
Alonzo said:
Yup, did the same thing years ago...it took two weeks for my eyes to come un-crossed...can still clap with my shoulder blades on a good day, it was quite the thunder stick with that load. We were all young and foolish in those days
My fave BP load was 50 FFg and a cast lyman 457193 of wheel weights. This worked in carbine and rifle. Tried a using a drop tube for a heavier charge, accuracy was no as consistent though. Always used an Ox-Yoke Wonder wad behind the bullet.
Most modern 45-70 cases will never hold 70 grains...you are lucky to get 65 with a 36" drop tube, and this fill the case to the case mouth.
Click to expand...

You must have been using Everlasting brass. Modern Remington and Winchester brass hold 70gr. easily. With a 500gr. bullet, yet. Same with .45 Colt. The 40gr. charge is just barely compressed in modern brass. The .45-70 used a compressed charge, unlike the .577-.450 Martini-Henry that used loose powder. Makes a big difference, much cleaner burning. A properly compressed charge leaves the brass pretty clean, too. Clean enough that you can wait a whole day without it turning green.
 
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