.458 Win Mag in a bolt gun vs. hot loaded .45-70 in a Guide Gun

remingtons lack of qc on marlins guns has turned me off from ever buying one .

from a horse power standpoint the 458 wins .... if you need more , depending on the action , you maybe be able to cut the chamber deeper and turn it into a 458 lott .

i have a ruger #1 in 45-120 that weighs around 15 pounds . firing off full power loads in it is punishing . firing off factory 28,000 psi , 400 grain 45-70 rounds is almost like firing off a pop gun in comparison .

what i want to build eventually is a 45-90 on a #4 lee enfield action ... almost a compromise to the 45-70 and 458 win .
 
I've got a GG in 45-70.
Also, a 700 in 416 Rem Mag.

I don't find the recoil bad on either of them but my dad claims the GG recoils more than the 416.

Had a Ruger #1 in 458 WM. That was just an ugly gun to shoot with the factory Ruger recoil pad.
 
Which bolt gun? When loaded to its full potential, the 458 Win Mag produces far more energy than the 45-70, but the Guide Gun is light, and the lever loop is not friendly to your hand, so the felt recoil from a Guide Gun will be more unpleasant than most bolt guns in 458 Win Mag.
 
I have one of each. A Marlin 1895GS in 45-70.

Marlin1895GS45-70.jpg


and a Winchester model 70 Super Express, 458WM.

Model70Winchester458WM.jpg


Which would I prefer?;) Both, each has their own application. Using top end loads the Guide Gun is capable of handling with either the 400gr jacketed or 420gr cast,:redface: I find it a little more brutal than top end loads in the Winchester, even when using the 500gr jacketed bullets. The Guide Gun is shorter, lighter and seems to have a harsher snappier recoil compared to the Winchester. The Marlin straight stock design is a little harder on the fingers as well with heavy loads. Still, I have and will keep both. The Guide Gun does fit well on the handle bar gun rack on my quad.
 
Some early made Remington 700 BDL models in 458 were very light guns. You may want to keep that in mind if you start shopping for a 458. They would be a punisher on your shoulder. The heavier the gun is, the less felt recoil.

458 is a good round, and can be loaded in many ways for what you are hunting, but so can the 45-70.

I would go with the 45-70, unless you plan on doing a safari someday, then go with a 458.
 
I have carried and shot both for many years. I am lucky enough to live in a place that I can shoot almost anywhere any time. I shoot at least 10 rnds. of each every week, practice is random targets at bear range 5 - 50 yrds. while walking on the beach or tundra. The .458 was a wm changed to a Lott on a Brno 602 (very heavy rifle) shooting 5 rnds as fast as I can is not very pleasant but is fun. The 45-70 holds 6 so as fast as I can shoot it I don't see a lot of difference in the pleasant part but the fun is still there.I have since sold the .458 and bought a Ruger .416 as a replacement much nicer to carry about the same to shoot. Now a friend has a .375 RUM thats a un fun rifle to shoot even once.

stay safe
pounder
 
A traditional .45/70 lever action is nicer to carry all day than is a typical .458 bolt gun. Having said that, my comfort level is higher with the bolt gun becasue I use bolt guns more. One issue that is sure to come up is the question of the speed of the second shot. The lever gun guys will generally opine that they can fire a backup shot more quickly than the fellow with the bolt gun. If the question was concerning a .30/30 lever gun and a .308 bolt gun, I'd give them that, maybe, but a hot loaded .45/70 creates some disturbance when lit up, and his rifle is lighter. By the time the levergun shooter has recovered from recoil, cycled the action, and reacquired his target, about as much time has expired as it has for the fellow who is shooting his .458 bolt gun under similar circumstances . . . provided he knows his business.
 
pounder said:
I have carried and shot both for many years. I am lucky enough to live in a place that I can shoot almost anywhere any time. I shoot at least 10 rnds. of each every week, practice is random targets at bear range 5 - 50 yrds. while walking on the beach or tundra. The .458 was a wm changed to a Lott on a Brno 602 (very heavy rifle) shooting 5 rnds as fast as I can is not very pleasant but is fun. The 45-70 holds 6 so as fast as I can shoot it I don't see a lot of difference in the pleasant part but the fun is still there.I have since sold the .458 and bought a Ruger .416 as a replacement much nicer to carry about the same to shoot. Now a friend has a .375 RUM thats a un fun rifle to shoot even once.stay safe
pounder
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Don't give me that . . . you were smiling as much as I was.

By the way, the .458 has significantly more muzzle rise than the .375 Ultra . . . oh right, I don't have a break on mine!;)
 
Andy said:
Which bolt gun? When loaded to its full potential, the 458 Win Mag produces far more energy than the 45-70, but the Guide Gun is light, and the lever loop is not friendly to your hand, so the felt recoil from a Guide Gun will be more unpleasant than most bolt guns in 458 Win Mag.
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"Will be more unpleasant"? Do you own one or have fired one? IMHO, I find that is simply NOT the case. I own one, fired it and have never experienced the finger jamming, mind you, I don't have extra large hands either - that could be an issue in that case. Ya, it has a kick to it with full loads, but that's half the fun! I hold it tight to the shoulder and let fly! My 12 gauge S/S with mag loads seems to have more punch on the shoulder than the 45-70.
 
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I have never shot a 458 win mag, but have a marlin guide gun and marlin cowboy with a 26 inch barrel and plastic butt plate.
Shooting the cowboy is quite brutal, but the guide gun is very managable with full power loads. less recoil than my 375 H&H which is my favourite gun for everything. The cowboy with a Williams peep is however very accurate and often I could put 4/5 rounds on a 200 yard 8 inch steel plate
 
In the GG - Commercial - Remington 405 Gr SP. That one has a bit of punch to it - ya, it kicks. Also have a couple of boxes of the 300 Gr HP's - those ones are not too bad.

In my 45-70 Cowboy - cast only (Bullet Barn). Lighter loads = trailboss, heavier loads RL-7.
 
In the GG - Commercial - Remington 405 Gr SP. That one has a bit of punch to it - ya, it kicks. Also have a couple of boxes of the 300 Gr HP's - those ones are not too bad. Oh - is now the best time to say that I also installed a nice fluffy recoil pad on that little bugger?

In my 45-70 Cowboy - cast only (Bullet Barn). Lighter loads = trailboss, heavier loads RL-7.
 
sobo4303 said:
In the GG - Commercial - Remington 405 Gr SP. That one has a bit of punch to it - ya, it kicks. Also have a couple of boxes of the 300 Gr HP's - those ones are not too bad. Oh - is now the best time to say that I also installed a nice fluffy recoil pad on that little bugger?

In my 45-70 Cowboy - cast only (Bullet Barn). Lighter loads = trailboss, heavier loads RL-7.
Click to expand...

Those are not full house loads. Try reloading the 405's to 1850-1900 fps and then tell us what you think about the recoil in your guide gun. Factory loads are nowhere near that just in case you didn't know.
 
Then you are probably right then, because I load the 405's to the lever guidelines. 42 gr of RL-7. The factories seem to be heavier punching than that. Mind you, I did shoot a few of my cast loads out of the GG and they were up there. But I still think the 12 gauge was harder on my shoulder. I have never loaded beyond that because of all the warnings and such with the supposed weaker action of the levers versus the Ruger #1 (other reloading spec). Guess, I'm still a softie and will take your word for it, as I'm not that much of a glutton for punishment. :)
 
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