.459 Lead Bullet for .45-70

yonderin

yonderin

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I'm getting ready to start reloading for an 1873 Trapdoor Carbine (repro). I haven't checked too extensively but all I can find for a 405 gr mold is .459.

From the little bit that I've found, the opinion is to load as is and fire away. Does anybody have experience that shows it's neccessary or at least a very good practice to swage the projectile while loading?

I have a good good supply of pure lead to get started so I don't see any concern in regard to higher pressures. I intend on starting with 55 gr of BP or Pyrodex RS to duplicate the issued loads for the carbine, at least to start.

Thanks for any advice.
 
slug your barrel to confirm your bore, but .459" is the standard for .45-70, I use that in my .45-70 & 45-90 Not in a Trapdoor mind you, but the principles are the same - your particular barrel, could be over/undersize.

As for swaging, check your cast bullets & if they are substantially oversize then I would myself, swage them down to ~0.010" over your bore diameter (hence the slugging).

55 gr of Pyrodex? Confirm that load, Pyrodex may produce higher pressures (someone can correct me there) - but 55 grains of Goex should work well for you with the 405, I've shot that combination a lot in my 45-70 and found it very accurate (in my rifle).

Make sure you use non-petroleum based lube (I pan lube with olive oil/beeswax @50/50). I find that is more important than the hardness/softness of the lead, depending anyway on your bore.

Also consider an over-powder card; I recommend a drop-tube with compression for the .45-70; and also make very sure you have no airspace!!

Good luck - have fun.
 
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Sounds right. .459 should give you about .001 to swage. You may want to alloy your pure lead a bit say 30:1 and aim for velocties between 1200 fps and 1350 fps.
Some guns and loads like a bullet .001 over bore size some loads and guns like it at bore size, some .001 under bore size. You'll have to find out what your gun/load likes.
Bear in mind that BP loads will slug up more than smokeless loads will.
 
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BigBore. Thanks for the reminder on on using Pyrodex as a propellant, I should have specified 55 gr by volume. My understanding was that Pyrodex is bulkier, so by weight it is more powerful than Goex black powder. But, the traditional method of measuring black powder is by volume, so in that sense it is a black powder performance substitute. But this will be my first foray into using it as a BP sub in a cartridge and any supervision/advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks also for the lube recipe. I've been buying beeswax for my muzzleloader and needed to find a mixture, I 'll be trying yours first.

Anybody recommend a filler? When I had a BP revolver I used cornmeal but I was much younger and tended to worry less about my appendages.

So far all I've fired is a box of factory 300 gr Rem JHP and getting it on paper just hasn't happened. I just got a box of Winchester 405 gr Cowboy and hope it'll perform more like the issued carbine round. I understand the Rem round launches considerably faster than (like 40-50% higher velocity) than the GI 405 gr. My carbine has a leaf rear sight as opposed to the ladder type on an original so I've got a lot less play for adjustments.

I really need to get this rifle sorted. It was love first sight and I can't wait to take it hunting (it's literally a blast). In the end I'll likely be relaoding smokeless propellant for the most part but wanted to try something close to original as well.

Again, thanks for any points.
 
hoote said:
Lee makes a 459 hollow base 400gr mould specically for the trapdoor.
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This.

It is my understanding that the trapdoors are finicky as far as accuracy is concerned, and these hollow base bullets are more likely to shoot well.

That's what I'll be using, along with black powder, for my trapdoors next spring.
 
yonderin said:
BigBore. Thanks for the reminder on on using Pyrodex as a propellant, I should have specified 55 gr by volume. My understanding was that Pyrodex is bulkier, so by weight it is more powerful than Goex black powder. But, the traditional method of measuring black powder is by volume, so in that sense it is a black powder performance substitute. But this will be my first foray into using it as a BP sub in a cartridge and any supervision/advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks also for the lube recipe. I've been buying beeswax for my muzzleloader and needed to find a mixture, I 'll be trying yours first.

Anybody recommend a filler? When I had a BP revolver I used cornmeal but I was much younger and tended to worry less about my appendages.

So far all I've fired is a box of factory 300 gr Rem JHP and getting it on paper just hasn't happened. I just got a box of Winchester 405 gr Cowboy and hope it'll perform more like the issued carbine round. I understand the Rem round launches considerably faster than (like 40-50% higher velocity) than the GI 405 gr. My carbine has a leaf rear sight as opposed to the ladder type on an original so I've got a lot less play for adjustments.

I really need to get this rifle sorted. It was love first sight and I can't wait to take it hunting (it's literally a blast). In the end I'll likely be relaoding smokeless propellant for the most part but wanted to try something close to original as well.

Again, thanks for any points.
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OK just making sure you were aware - sounds like you're on track :)

For filler, I use corn starch or corn meal (whatever I've got handy), with good results.
 
I had a nice original Trapdoor once. The groove diameter was .462. It would be well worth slugging your bore. It was hard to find a mould that dropped them large enough so I ordered a custom mould from Accurate Molds. 46-500F that drops a 500 grain bullet that can be used in either the original Trapdoor or an original Winchester 1886. You specify what size you want to size the bullet to and your alloy and he machines the mould accordingly.
 
I realize it's not as good as slugging the barrel but I mic'ed it and got an average groove diameter of about .452 so initial indications are that I should be able to get by with 405 Gr HB mold for casting and factory projectiles. But before I get too wrapped up in casting for it I'll get it slugged.

Something that has also stirred my interest lately, and if the mold drops a slightly too small projectile for my bore, is paper patching. I've done some research on it, would like opinions on whether or not it's worth to pursue for this rifle.

Hoote. Thanks for the info on the mold. I had been looking at it on the shelf a couple of days ago and was wondering if it was going to need swaging, I figgered it would be ok as is. But nothing on the box to indicate it was intended for a Trapdoor.

.38-55. Thanks for the info on the custom molds
 
yonderin said:
I realize it's not as good as slugging the barrel but I mic'ed it and got an average groove diameter of about .452 so initial indications are that I should be able to get by with 405 Gr HB mold for casting and factory projectiles. But before I get too wrapped up in casting for it I'll get it slugged.

Something that has also stirred my interest lately, and if the mold drops a slightly too small projectile for my bore, is paper patching. I've done some research on it, would like opinions on whether or not it's worth to pursue for this rifle.

Hoote. Thanks for the info on the mold. I had been looking at it on the shelf a couple of days ago and was wondering if it was going to need swaging, I figgered it would be ok as is. But nothing on the box to indicate it was intended for a Trapdoor.

.38-55. Thanks for the info on the custom molds
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.452 or .462? .452 is .45 Colt territory. If it is actually .452 you will want to size those down to the .453-4" ish range.
 
Yeah, I noticed the big gap but at this point assume it's because I mic'ed it and slugging it might reveal a different and more accurate diameter. .452 was the average, I got one reading around .458 and suspect that was the truest reading. I had some readings way under and figger that came from either a land or I had the micrometer ####-eyed.

Hopefully over Christmas I'll be able to have it slugged and know exactly where I stand. Won't be getting around to doing anything else with it for a while.

Hopefully it'll work out that I don't have to return the mold. Unfortunately it's mail order or a bit of a drive to a good supplier.
 
I would shoot the bullets as cast/not swaged since you will be using pure lead and counting on the hollow base to expand and fill the grooves anyway. As for paper patching, you would be using a different bullet design for that rather than the grease-groove style - paper patch is a whole different world. Powder compression is critical to accuracy with BPCR. In my experience, when you start shooting groups for accuracy tests, pay less attention to lateral dispersion and more to vertical because that is a good measure of consistent combustion or lack thereof. You will probably end up compressing the powder anywhere from 1/16" to 1/8" or maybe a bit more to get consistent combustion. In learning to load for my 45-90 that was the hardest lesson for me to believe. For spacers I bought .460" card wads from TOTW to fill space so my bullets sat just touching the rifling while having no air space in the case.
 
The lee part number is 90268 which is .459", 405gr Hollow base. I have an original rifle with a .463 bbl and this bullet at 1 in 40 shoots consistantly into 2 to 3" @ 100 yds. If you really want the dope on shooting trapdoors go to Wolf's Custom Traders website. One should be able to Google it
 
hoote said:
The lee part number is 90268 which is .459", 405gr Hollow base. I have an original rifle with a .463 bbl and this bullet at 1 in 40 shoots consistantly into 2 to 3" @ 100 yds. If you really want the dope on shooting trapdoors go to Wolf's Custom Traders website. One should be able to Google it
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Super, thanks.

I've got a trapdoor rifle in excellent shape, and a nice carbine, that I look forward to shooting next year.
 
Original trapdoors never shot a hollow base bullet; the original bullet was a 500 grain flat base lead bullet roughly 20 parts lead to 1 part tin loaded over 70 grains of compressed black powder. Due to the mass and the soft alloy of the bullet the initial push from the powder charge would compress the bullet causing it to expand slightly and fill the rifling grooves.
For my original Trapdoor I load a 20:1 500 grain bullet over a compressed 70 grain charge with a vegetable fiber wad in between. To load these you will need a drop tube to help reduce the volume of the powder in the case and a powder compression die as you have to compress the powder before you seat the bullet.
Lyman Rifle Bullet Mould: 45 Caliber - #457125 is a copy of the original 45-70-500 bullet.
 
Klunk said:
STUPID QUESTION ALERT!!!

wont the corn filler mix with the powder...?....and change the burn rate?
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In my experience, the compression seems to keep them effectively separated. It does create a neat effect at the muzzle though, depending on how much filler is there: Big cloud of smoke - and filler. I'm not shooting competitively with my loads (no matches close by), so defer happily to any advice to the contrary.

I should add that in the .45-70 and -90, as stated above, I also use a drop tube + compression and cards under the base of the bullet - same/similar as is posted above. A card can also be used to separate the filler, if filler is used.

I tend to use the most filler, in .45 Colt loads and I do just drop the filler on top of the Goex, works well. Rifle loads, especially if you want accuracy, demand more attention to achieve consistency, as posted by others.
 
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