5.45mm and Ballistics Discussion (and Russian M4's).

I am surprised to hear Russians are using M4s for actual mission. I have seen pictures of it but i assume that is just for training.

That's gonna break the heart of the hardcore aK lovers.
 
Russians using M4's?? Probably Russian contractors since the Govt doesn't usually sell 5.45 to private use.

Anyone have a link for this story with the Rooskie M4s?
 
KrazyKracker said:
AHH Scarecrow maybe you should actually read what KevinB said and what you quoted him saying about the 5.45 and the 5.56.

What he is saying is that the Russian Tier1 assets have actually dumped the 5.45 in favor of using the M4A1's chambered in 5.56.

Now I can only assume that the reason for this is that they believe that the 5.45 cartridge is sub-optimal for its intended purpose and that the 5.56 fills this purpose better.
Click to expand...

Again maybe you should try reading WTF I said before foaming at the mouth.
They adopted the rifle, so the caliber had no choice of being 5.56 since the rifle isnt possible to be had in 5.45.

And I already know from russian testing that 5.45 has been deemed a less accurate caliber VS 5.56 so it may also have to do with accuracy requirements. But please Mr. Professor dont let me get in your way.
 
Foaming at the mouth!!??? What the hell. All I was pointing out was that you seemed to be implying that KevinB was mixing up his calibers (the 5.45 and the 5.56). Also that some Russia forces have switched to the M4A1’s.

Now I don’t think that they would make this switch for no reason. It can’t be because of reliability of the AK family of firearms, or availability of them and ammunition. This in my mind only leaves accuracy and the terminal performance of the rounds that the AK is chambered for. Now I can see it being a combination of these two factors more that just one of them by itself.

Now don’t get wrong I wouldn’t want to even be shot with a .22LR let alone a 5.45 round. And for the most part shot placement is much much more important than the size, speed, or ballistic affect of the round.
 
You think this and think that but KevinB can talk for himself, doesnt need you missunderstanding comments made to him.

And if it where caliber based as your implying the russians make 5.56 AK's so obviously it has nothing to do with caliber.
 
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Mechanism of wounding is a science.

Due to the way the human body is constructed people become incapacitated by (basically) one of two things. In very basic terms this is:

1) Shutting down the nervous sytem -- a CNS/neural motor stip or hit to the brain stem. Severing the spinal cord in some ways can accomplish the same (depending where its severed)

2) Shutting down the human motor by bleeding them out. This is best done by massive trauma.
A projectile that will penetrate a significant distance into the body and fragment - will cause more damage (via secondary projectiles) than [9 time out of 10) a projectile that remains in one piece.

This is born out by the fact that 5.56m bullets that do no fragment in their target are notably less effective than those that do fragment.
A bullet that yaws and creates a small permanent cavity will do less damage than one that penetrated and then explosively fragments -- as seen in the slides at the top of the page.

Now if you look at the TSWG 7.62mm NATO developed for the 11 and 13" FN's it has a GREAT deal more effectiveness than 5.56mm rounds. The offset is large recoil, flash, weight of the round etc.

There are M4's in 5.45 - no idea if the work though.
I doubt that the 5.56mm round is the only reason for those units adopting them (the M4 is very ergonomic, and modular) - but it is a point to note.

I have a bunch of other info -- but nothing else open source sorry.
 
I suspect people are jumping on the M4 becasue of the whole slew of Night fighting equipment that they can be attached too, and that the M4 is light to start with. Imaging piling all these gadgets on monsters like SG550 or AR70/90. The AK with the removeable dust cover doesn't lend itself to putting anything else over the top of the receiver either. The side mounts are more like sophisticated after thoughts.

You must admit, the AMericans had developed lots of gadgets for the M4 platform. We are blessed we have $$$ but most governments are run on shoe string.
 
Exactly which troops are getting M4's? Who has the contract? I have seen 5.45 AR's but they wherent military rifles, more like some gimmick for US buyers.
I havent seen M4's at beslan or in checnya but I have seen a whole lot of 5.45.
I also find it weird that the russians are using MP5's unless its a result of superbness of 9mm. Possibly for commonality with other swat teams during international competition?

As for wounding, 5.45 yaws early in the body. All it takes is your usual retarded afghan medic who has probably only had years of experience dealing with wounds that go straight through or that can be found at a straight angle from entry, so he can't understand a bullet entering the top of the shoulder going down possibly causing some internal bleeding making the person die later on.

My story does proove SOF had no idea what they where talking about, but its still lies in the world of possible that the afghans dint know what they where dealing with, afterall they dint have any jello molds.

KevinB you have access to any 5.45 and some wild animals or something you could test it VS 5.56?
 
On the "airtip" 5.45x39.5mm - this bullet wasn't designed this way, the 5.45mm bullet has a very pointy ogive and in manufacturing it the Russians weren't able to get the lead to go all the way to the tip.

The fact that it has a hollow tip is just a manufacturing oddity. When Soldier of Fortune first got their hands on some they said it was designed to make the bullet yaw on impact, but unfortunately they were giving the Russians far too much credit.

Bulgarian 5.45mm doesn't have the air pocket in the tip. IIRC, the Bulgarian ammo performs pretty much the same as M193 in ballistic gelatin.
 
Some 303 British had aluminum or wooden core in the nose. I don't know if this was for economy or for effectiveness. Kalashnikov said they should have improved the 7.62 bullet rather than going for 5.54. Anyway, thanks for the nice pics KevinB!
 
moral of the story here dont get shot by a 308 or a 5.56 over 55gr because it will hurt BAD

as for the russian air pocket thing its mostly propagand like the diag show
 
Unregistered said:
Can you get .223 fragmentation velocity out of a 14.5" barrel?
Click to expand...

Yes at 75 m or less the 14.5 inch barrel will provide the proper velocity to cause M885 to fragment. M193 will get you out to 100m and still fragment. The sweet spot is 2700 FPS for optimum fragmentation with both rounds. A 20inch barrel will give you 190m with M193 and 150m with M885. Not to say neither will be accurate beyond that but you will be punching .223 inch holes into the target,unless you hit something vital the target will not go down (true at any range).
 
How heavy do you need a bullet to be to get reliable fragmentation out of a 10.5 inch barrel? 77gr? I heard there was a round that was made at 100grain but it never much went anywhere.
 
Depending on Lot and jacket thickness is another issue.

M193: 2700 FS
M855: 2500-2700 FPS
Mk262: 2200-2400 FPS

The PRL 87 gr Tungsten was fragementing down to 1750fps - SOMETIMES.
It was not a reliable performer and cost killed further experimentation I believe. It was being marketed as a Green round (lead free) - but was $'ey

The BH100gr would frag down past 2100fps - but had the trajectory of a 7 year kid trying to shotput.


BigRed I think has a 5.45 AK IIRC in his toy trunk (we are not longer on the same team and in different towns) but not sure how the idea would fly about us driving down MSR Tampa looking for people and animals to do testing on...


On the 10" guns
Your looking at a muzzle to 45m evelope for reliable frag.


Keep in mind even rounds that do not frag in 5.56m will be have like the M43 and M74 round and yaw end over (boat tail bullets just seem to do that in human tissue. So there will still be some tissue destruction -- but the damage will be a lot less.
People have been killed at stupid long ranges will bullets that dont fragment -- view it as a bonus - not a must.
 
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