5th reload bump shoulder why?

MHouser, usually when the 6PPC guys order a die it is done after a few pieces of brass are fired at least 3 times. Then we will send them down south to have our custom made dies. I would use the same at least 3 firings before I felt the measurment was accurate enough.

Bigedp, I treat all my brass as if I am fireforming for the 6PPC. We lube the outside of the brass and seat the bullet long to try and keep the case tight against the boltface. The lube on the brass alllows the brass to flow easier and not grip the walls of the chamber so it hopefully flows from anywhere but the web area.

cby
 
cycbb486

Oiling or lubing cartridge cases increases bolt thrust or the force applied to the bolt. The lube also increases the length of "time" this force is applied to the bolt and bolt lugs. (pressure impulse)

The firearms industry tells you "NOT" to do it for a reason and the problem is the "greasing myth" continues to be spread by people who think this practice is harmless.

Greasing, oiling or lubing your cartridge cases applies twice the force to your bolt than a dry cartridge does and our rifles were designed to shoot dry cartridges.

Not one person who recommends lubing cartridge cases can produce "ANY" written documentation from the firearms industry telling anyone to do this. BUT the firearms industry prints warnings not to do this because of the increased pressures and bolt thrust and damage it can cause.

NO ONE should be allowed to come into a forum and tell forum members to ignore safety warnings when they don't have the pressure measuring equipment to back up these stupid statements.

The following is from the H.P. White Testing Laboratories, the American premier firearms testing lab in the U.S.

You are told not to lube your cartridge cases because your are exceeding the design specifications and this repeated over pressure and bolt thrust can cause catastrophic failure of the firearm.

Overpressure-boltthrust.jpg


HPWhitediscussion.png


HPW-2.jpg


hpw-3.jpg


By lubing the cartridge case you are applying twice the force on the locking lugs and receiver than a dry cartridge case does.

max-effective-stress.png
 
Well bigedP

I guess myself, and all the other Benchrest shooters who put some lube on a Lapua 220 Russian case after necking it up to 6mm, neck turning, filling the case full of VV133, seating a bullet on top of the powder charge(long), and fireforming have ALL blown up..............

I think I will stick to my method that many Hall of Fame Benchrest shooters have taught us.

Okay to clear myself as per bigedP request, DON'T DO IT (but I still will).

I can maybe see that in them old C++p Mauser actions which appears to be the books you are quoting were used at the time and they refer to military rifles in most of your articles. Remember the year is 2010 and not 1929 as the one book says.

Again this is my opinion. If the moderators feel differently about my opinion, they will say so.



CBY
 
MHouser said:
Ya, I know what the gauge measures, who makes it and what you get if you buy the kit. My question was about actually using it and whether I should be measuring once fired brass or brass after it has been fired 4 or 5 times (i.e. when it starts to become tough to chamber).
.
Click to expand...

My procedure is to always size my brass through a body die after every firing. The die is set so that the shoulder is bumped just enough to ensure positive chambering.

I am not concerned about the actual length as it really doesn't matter.

You have brass that is stiff to chamber so you have the perfect brass to use. Start the body die out so it just touches the case. Wipe off the lube and chamber in your rifle.

Still stiff, lower the die about a 1/4" of rotation. Lube the case and run the case in. Clean off the lube, rechamber.

Did it chamber with a hint of resistance or easy? I want to have just a hint of resistance when the bolt is just about to fully close. This is zero headspace and ideal for the F class application - we will be running elevated pressures and too much case expansion is not good for case life.

If you don't like that hint of resistance, lower the die 1/8" of rotation and that should bump your case another thou or two.

Try with some of the unsized/stiff to chamber cases and it should go into your rifle, easy as can be.

I run each case through the body die to ensure that every case is the same size, every case will chamber without issue. I don't want to have a 'fat' case during a match.

I almost never use a FL sizer as I like the base to have an interference fit with the chamber. I feel this centers my case in the chamber.

Jerry
 
mysticplayer said:
My procedure is to always size my brass through a body die after every firing. The die is set so that the shoulder is bumped just enough to ensure positive chambering.

I am not concerned about the actual length as it really doesn't matter.

You have brass that is stiff to chamber so you have the perfect brass to use. Start the body die out so it just touches the case. Wipe off the lube and chamber in your rifle.

Still stiff, lower the die about a 1/4" of rotation. Lube the case and run the case in. Clean off the lube, rechamber.

Did it chamber with a hint of resistance or easy? I want to have just a hint of resistance when the bolt is just about to fully close. This is zero headspace and ideal for the F class application - we will be running elevated pressures and too much case expansion is not good for case life.

If you don't like that hint of resistance, lower the die 1/8" of rotation and that should bump your case another thou or two.

Try with some of the unsized/stiff to chamber cases and it should go into your rifle, easy as can be.

I run each case through the body die to ensure that every case is the same size, every case will chamber without issue. I don't want to have a 'fat' case during a match.

I almost never use a FL sizer as I like the base to have an interference fit with the chamber. I feel this centers my case in the chamber.

Jerry
Click to expand...

Do you use a tool like the Hornady Headspace Gauge to measure the round after you have the shoulder where you want it?
Are you using a bushing type neck sizing die? If so, which one?
Also what body die are you using? i.e. manufacturer?

I'm leaning towards the redding competition neck bushing die, redding body die and redding competition seater. I plan on turning necks with the K&M set of tools for doing so as well.
 
Don't waist the extra money on the entire Competition set if Redding is the way you want to go. Get the set that has the Full Length Neck Die and the Competition Seater. Forget about the body die.

The Full Length Neck Die will bump the shoulder for you and uses neck bushings for neck tension. Does it all in one step. Everyone has there own thoughts of there reasoning for the way they choose to size there brass and what they choose for a set of dies.

Jerry is a fan of the Lee collet dies so he can shed more light on them than I ever could as I have never used them.
 
cycbb486 said:
Don't waist the extra money on the entire Competition set if Redding is the way you want to go. Get the set that has the Full Length Neck Die and the Competition Seater. Forget about the body die.

The Full Length Neck Die will bump the shoulder for you and uses neck bushings for neck tension. Does it all in one step. Everyone has there own thoughts of there reasoning for the way they choose to size there brass and what they choose for a set of dies.

Jerry is a fan of the Lee collet dies so he can shed more light on them than I ever could as I have never used them.
Click to expand...

I like the idea of not running the case over an expander ball/button which the full length die has and the neck sizing die does not, that's why I was leaning towards the 3 die set.

I have been using the lee collet neck die for a while and really like it except that you are limited by the size of the mandrel that the inside of the neck is pressed against. If you want more neck tension you need another mandrel or have the one that comes with it modified. If you want less tension it's pretty much a guessing game. With the bushings in the Redding you have full control. Pricey as you need to buy a bunch of bushings, but full control nonetheless.

I was also thinking of substituting the forster seater (the one /wo the micrometer to keep the price down), which is supposed to be just as good as the redding,
 
MHouser

MHouser said:
I like the idea of not running the case over an expander ball/button which the full length die has and the neck sizing die does not, that's why I was leaning towards the 3 die set.
QUOTE]

The Redding Type S Full Length dies come with 2 buttons, one that when passed through the neck opens it up and another that DOES NOT touch the inside of the neck at all. You just switch to the button that does not touch.

This is the set you are looking for.

Type S – Full Bushing Die
Full length resizing while maintaining exact control of the case neck is often desirable in one operation. The new Type S - Full Length Resizing/Bushing Die accomplishes this task with the precision you would expect from Redding.

Uses the same interchangeable bushings (.001" increments) as those used in our bushing style neck sizing dies.
The adjustable decapping rod allows you to adjust the bushing position, sizing only part of the neck length when desire d .
Concentricity is enhanced by the ability of the bushing to self-center on the neck of the cartridge case.
All Type S (except 17 and 20 Cal.) dies are supplied with both the standard size button and a decapping pin retainer for the advantages and versatility described under our Type S - Bushing Style Neck Sizing Dies.
Note: By removing the bushing and all internal parts, the Type-S full bushing die may also be used as a body die.

All dies are supplied without bushings. For ordering numbers see pages 4 & 5

Category I . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $76.80
Category II . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $94.20
Category III . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $115.80

What caliber are you wanting this for?

Calvin
Click to expand...
 
308

Ok so what can't I do with the single die over the separate neck and body dies. If the answer is nothing then why do they sell both?
 
The only

MHouser said:
308

Ok so what can't I do with the single die over the separate neck and body dies. If the answer is nothing then why do they sell both?
Click to expand...

difference I can see between the 2 is if you have the Full Length Neck die you bump the shoulder and neck in one operation all the time.

If you go with just a Neck die it will just do the neck and you use the body die to bump the shoulder back when needed. I find it a pain in the butt when sizing brass. It takes 2 steps when it is done in one step with the Full length neck die.

Personally I feel ones brass ends up staying more consistent if the sizing of the case is done all the time instead of when it is needed. Do I have claims to back it up? No but I rely on the shooters I follow and have fired 10's of thousands more than I ever have.

CBY
 
With regards to the reloading shims and competition shell holders, I'm just trying to figure out how they work. You set up the die with a thick shim or shell holder so that the die touches the brass without resizing and lock in the ring. Now you replace the shim or shell holder with thinner one that corresponds to the amount of bumps you want. Is this right?

I've been measuring a fired case with a comparator and adjusting the die and re-measuring to try and get the right bump. The shims method seems for straight forward if I'm picturing it right, seems better than repeated measuring trial and error.
 
Ducimus, you ave it. Instead of playing with the lock ring and turning the die in you remove shims.

The shims have notches cut into them which corresponds as to how thick they are. 3 notches= 3thou, 4= 4 thou etc.

Basically you maybe stack 10-15 thou of shims on the die before screwing it into the press. Then you can rough adjsut by screwing the die in and sizing until you know you are close to the bump you want. When you reach that point lock the ring on the die and don't touch it.

Let's say you were at that point and had 15 thou worth of shims stacked. Unscrew the die and remove 2 thou of shim using what ever combination of shims which will move you from 15 thou -2 thou= 13 thou of shim. Screw the die back down, size the case measure with comparator. If you get the 2 thou bump you want or the feel you want you are done. If not remove a bit more shim and repeat.

Like I said I feel shims are the cheaper alternative. You will NOT find many BR shooters who do not have MULTIPLE sets of shims in there loading box.

CBY
 
I've got a set of Redding FL "S" dies coming in the mail. When I order the bushings I'll definitely get a set of shims at the same time.

Of course I'd still have to do a lot of measuring in order to find the fired brass that grew the least during firing to set the die up....I hate measuring! Getting consistent readings seems like an art.
 
The way I see it if you take all the internal components out of the S die (i.e. the bushing and ball/button assembly) you have the body die. If you take the ball/button assembly out and leave the bushing in you have the neck die with the option of full length sizing/bumping at the same time.

The question is can you adjust the S die to only neck size and not full length size/bump at all?
 
Houser yes you can but if you do that you size less of the neck with the bushing.

Trust me, you will never oversize your brass using the Full Length S die as it is meant to be used. It does not make sense to break it down and use it in the manner you mention.

CBY
 
Duce,

Ducimus said:
I've got a set of Redding FL "S" dies coming in the mail. When I order the bushings I'll definitely get a set of shims at the same time.

Of course I'd still have to do a lot of measuring in order to find the fired brass that grew the least during firing to set the die up....I hate measuring! Getting consistent readings seems like an art.
Click to expand...

you will more than likely find that if you use the die like it is meant to be your brass will chamber cosistently longer. When it starts to get a bit harder to close the bolt after many many firings, remove another thou or 2 of shim and carry on. It will get to a point that the brass will get work hardened enough that the consistency is lost. At that point it is time to pitch it.
 
cycbb486 said:
Houser yes you can but if you do that you size less of the neck with the bushing.

Trust me, you will never oversize your brass using the Full Length S die as it is meant to be used. It does not make sense to break it down and use it in the manner you mention.

CBY
Click to expand...

I understand what you are saying and realize you know 1000 times more than I do but I still don't get why some people use the separate dies? Basically what you are saying is that anyone who does is either wasting their time or doing it wrong.
 
Houser, it is just that people believe that neck sizing is all that is required UNTIL they begin to get brass that is HARD to chamber. It does and will work that way but you are sizing the brass anyways in the neck so why not do it all the time in one step and you will avoid having a piece of brass that is hard to chamber. The brass life WILL NOT be any less when the die is set up properly. You will have a more consistent bolt feel this way. I prefer to move the brass a little everytime versus it possible retaining a memory and not wanting to size as well.

There are people who are more qualified to explain this in better detail but I trust what I have learned and been taught by some GREAT shooters here in Canada and the US.

I tried to do 22-250 by just neck sizing and bumping ONLY when it was required. I found it would not work that way. The 22-250 case is not a very good shape for that. There is plenty of brass movement because of the taper of it. The 243 is similar but not quite as bad. I had the 3 die set and every time I sized brass I had to do a extra step. Do the neck in one step and bump the shoulder in the second step. What a pain and waste of time. I found that more tedious than cleaning my rifles.

Again this is the perspective of someone who shoots benchrest. These same habits when used in any factory rifle will yield similare results in brass life. The only thing that would extend the life of the brass in the factory chambering is a die made to mimic the chamber dimensions.

There may be other arguments in regards to my practices but I know waht the top BR shooters are doing to prep there brass.

Go to Youtube and search Jack Neary. Watch the 6 parts on tuning with 133. It pertains to the 6PPC but all these steps he talks about can be relayed to all calibers. As you keep watching it will and may give you more insite into how benchrest is more than the average person thinks it is.

CBY
 
Man I hate cleaning my guns so the reference is understood. Also, thanks for the detailed responses, I really appreciate it. I'm a bit of a sponge for information at the moment as I'm totally getting into this precision reloading thing.

I'm just going to throw this out there...

I have a Savage 10FCP in .308 and I'm getting consistent 1/2 MOA groups out to 300 yards with cheap brass, Varget and 175gr SMKs. Haven't tried reaching out any further than that. No neck turning or anything like that. In an attempt to continue to learn and maybe extend brass life and gain a little bit in accuracy I was thinking of converting 30-06 brass to 308 and take advantage of the increase in neck wall thickness of the converted brass such that the outside neck diameter more closely matched that of my chamber. I converted one and seated a bullet and the outside neck diameter measured .341. My chamber is approx. .344. Currently my factory 308 brass after neck sizing and seating yields .336, even when I neck size just enough to grip the bullet. I was going to clean up the neck of the converted brass just enough to improve concentricity. Maybe take it down a thou or 2 at the most.

Remember this is a learning exercise and I understand that it's really not worth the effort with factory rifles but does this thinking make any sense?
 
A few things. Is it worth the effort to go through to convert 30-06 brass? I myself would not. If I am not mistaken on a factory produced cartridge the shoulder/neck area brass is thinner than the body/web of the case. Forming your own brass from 30-06 would give you thicker neck and shoulder brass. The neck part I can see from the stand point of having brass that would be closer to your chamber. The shoulder area well I do not know for sure if there is an ill efffect. The guys who are more into wildcatting would have a better idea. The other thing is if forming cases I would use annealing the necks as part of the process to make the necks and shoulder more plyable we could say.

The second thing, and this is what I would do, (depending on what kind of shooting and how rounds you would need) is buy LAPUA 308 brass, run through the die, trim, chamfer, load and shoot. Do not worry about cleaning the necks up at all. You may or may not want to do the flash holes and primer pockets. I do them because I have the tools to.

When you get to the point that it is time to rebarrel or you want to then I would contact a few trusted, credible gunsmiths who could chamber up a barrel with a TRUE match chamber and then move up. Will you see a difference? Maybe or maybe not. It is all in how you interpret the wind before you fire that shot.

The final thing is I would like to know how many shoot over a few windflags when they load develop? I will almost guarantee you I bet less than 1% on this forum do. Not shooting over windflags is a waste of good components when wanting to move up to the next step in the accuracy world. It is not as hard as it is made out to be. You just do not pull the trigger unless the flags are doing the same thing from shot to shot. That is it.

Hope this helps.

CBY
 
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