5th reload bump shoulder why?

[Mystic Precision]

Do you use a tool like the Hornady Headspace Gauge to measure the round after you have the shoulder where you want it?
Are you using a bushing type neck sizing die? If so, which one?
Also what body die are you using? i.e. manufacturer?

I'm leaning towards the redding competition neck bushing die, redding body die and redding competition seater. I plan on turning necks with the K&M set of tools for doing so as well.

I feel turning necks is a very good idea especially if you use bushing neck dies. Even thickness lead to consistent sizing and tension.

I do not use a measuring guage as I am limited by two things and whichever is shorter - The throat or the mag.

I set based on what the rifle tells me it needs.

I use the Lee collet neck die when available. It is a nice system with some advantages over the bushing die. You can adjust neck tension with these dies but it is way more of a pain then a bushing die.

In general, it creates 1.5 to 2 thou tension which is ideal for my needs - even a Norc M4.

I wouldn't bother with the comp neck die as I want to size the full length of the neck to the shoulder. WHY? because I want the neck to hold the bullet, not get fat and cause chambering errors.

The case body centers the cartridge in the chamber, the neck holds the bullet securely.

Partial sizing may help in the development of the donut.

The Type S is ideal for your tasks.

I use the Redding body die ALOT and it does a great job of bumping the shoulder to ensure proper chambering without disturbing the base or body of the case.

I am unsure if the Redding FL bushing die will leave that area untouched. With a term like FL put into the description, you would kind of think that is what it does.

If you wanted a bushing bump die, Forster makes a great set up for a very exciting price. The shape of the Forster bushings is also better at getting into the neck/shoulder area for sizing.

As for seaters, both Forster and Reddng make superb products. Again, Forster is substantially less money with the option with or without micrometer adj.

K&M makes a great turning set up and have had very positive feedback from happy customers. Other systems both bench and hand operated, work. Just pick the ones with the style and features you want. I have strong feelings with product that I feel doesn't so such a hot job so email me.

I sell quite a bit of Redding bushing dies. They work and shooters are very happy with the options these dies offer. They cost more but many feel, you get more...

Jerry

 

[Mystic Precision]

The way I see it if you take all the internal components out of the S die (i.e. the bushing and ball/button assembly) you have the body die. If you take the ball/button assembly out and leave the bushing in you have the neck die with the option of full length sizing/bumping at the same time.

The question is can you adjust the S die to only neck size and not full length size/bump at all?

This is the standard Type S neck bushing die. As I said previously, I think the FL version can/will size the case body and base especially if you have a larger chamber as is typical of factory rifles.

Jerry

 

[Mystic Precision]

Man I hate cleaning my guns so the reference is understood. Also, thanks for the detailed responses, I really appreciate it. I'm a bit of a sponge for information at the moment as I'm totally getting into this precision reloading thing.

I'm just going to throw this out there...

I have a Savage 10FCP in .308 and I'm getting consistent 1/2 MOA groups out to 300 yards with cheap brass, Varget and 175gr SMKs. Haven't tried reaching out any further than that. No neck turning or anything like that. In an attempt to continue to learn and maybe extend brass life and gain a little bit in accuracy I was thinking of converting 30-06 brass to 308 and take advantage of the increase in neck wall thickness of the converted brass such that the outside neck diameter more closely matched that of my chamber. I converted one and seated a bullet and the outside neck diameter measured .341. My chamber is approx. .344. Currently my factory 308 brass after neck sizing and seating yields .336, even when I neck size just enough to grip the bullet. I was going to clean up the neck of the converted brass just enough to improve concentricity. Maybe take it down a thou or 2 at the most.

Remember this is a learning exercise and I understand that it's really not worth the effort with factory rifles but does this thinking make any sense?

Don't bother necking down -06 brass. The work involved will not increase performance and likely be worse.

If not done, bed that Savage properly (I can help). Without this, you are not going to get any more consistency in your groups.

Check the runout of your loaded ammo. If over 4 thou, improve your dies to get it to 2thou

Use a precise scale. Error in powder weight will cause 'outs' in your group.

Match primers can help. I use CCI BR2.

Accept that a factory rifle shooting a 1/2 MOA AVERAGE is pretty darn good performance at 300yds. I have shot a number of Savage and Stevens rifles. Precious few AVERAGED under 1/2 min. Shot the occasional group in the 2's, and 3's, even the rare 1's BUT when a average of multiple groups were calculated, more like 1/3 to 1/2 min.

Another bullet may help?

But if you truly want better accuracy, then get a true match barrel. A Shilen or McGowen prefit will drop your accuracy averages into the 2's and 3's without fuss.

With my competition rifles, 1/4 min is the average....


Jerry

 

[MHouser]

Cycbb486, I am reaming flash holes and primer pockets and annealing after every 4 or 5 firings currently.

I hear what your saying about buying some half decent brass and just shooting and not worrying about all that other stuff and I get that. The problem is that I can't really afford the investment to move to the next level at the moment (I.e. New proper firearm) so I'm trying to learn as much as I can about reloading (I.e. Turning brass, concentricity and chamber and brass dimensions/specifications) with the tools and components I have. Not sure if this is common or not but I enjoy experimenting with my reloading tools and researching loading techniques as much if not more than actually shooting.

Believe me I can't wait to upgrade my firearm such that things fall into place (over simplification) instead of having to jury rig things with this factory rifle.

P.S. Thanks for pointing me at the 6 videos. This really is a sport that falls into the category of "the more you know the more you realize you have a lot to learn".

Do you know of any good articles that break down the steps involved in building a custom competition rifle? I have read through quite a few but there haven't been many that I would consider to be comprehensive.

Thank again.

 

[MHouser]

The Type S is ideal for your tasks.

Are you saying the Type S neck bushing die or Type S full length bushing die is ideal for me?

I use the Redding body die ALOT and it does a great job of bumping the shoulder to ensure proper chambering without disturbing the base or body of the case.

So it's handy to have one of these either way?

If you wanted a bushing bump die, Forster makes a great set up for a very exciting price. The shape of the Forster bushings is also better at getting into the neck/shoulder area for sizing.

So this die simply bumps but uses a bushing to hold the neck or does it neck size and bump?

As for seaters, both Forster and Reddng make superb products. Again, Forster is substantially less money with the option with or without micrometer adj.

Do you really need the micrometer adjustment?

K&M makes a great turning set up and have had very positive feedback from happy customers. Other systems both bench and hand operated, work. Just pick the ones with the style and features you want. I have strong feelings with product that I feel doesn't so such a hot job so email me.

I plan on purchasing the K&M stuff. turning tool kit with carbide mandrel, regular mandrel, expaniron w/ mandrel and pilot jack (whatever that is).

P.S. Do you know what the Redding die categories represent? i.e. Category I, II and III?

 

[cycbb486]

Houser, do what you can with what you have. In time you will put enough money away and when you felt the time is right you will make the next step. I do not know of any reads but if you live close to any credible gunsmith, I am sure they would be willing to let you sit and talk with them over a coffee or 2. I think that would be the best Way to go.

I will give you my take on a build.

First of all do I want to use a platform I currently have (in your case the Savage)or do I want to change to say a Rem700 or go right for the big stuff, Bat, Kelby, Stiller, Borden, etc.

Another thing to consider when pondering this is what do I want to do with the rifle? Is it for general hunting/occasional paper punching, Long range hunting/occasional LR paper punching, F-Class/hunting, short range BR etc. This will and may also help you determine which platform to go with.

If staying with a factory action then you have the costs of accurizing it, and or possibly having the action sleeved to give it more strength/rigidity. What steps does the gunsmith I choose feel are necessary in making a factory action a better than just factory action? Re cut the action threads, lap or recut lugs, ream raceways, after market bolt, true the face of the action, aftermarket or recut existing recoil lug?

What are the availability of the aftermarket parts for it? What is available for a stock? Do I want a single purpose stock or a cross course stock? What can I get easily and not break the bank book?

Aftermarket action, choose what you like for the application, get a Jewell trigger, rings and you are set. No extra work needed. The real GURU's will at times chuck up them custom actions to see if they are as good as the manufacturer says they are. Do I want a single shot or repeater action?

What caliber are you going with? Go with the tried and true and what is winning and being used for the task at hand. You don't take your street car to a Nascar race. Use the appropriate caliber for the task at hand. Example is taking a .223 to a short range BR match. You can to get your feet wet. The only tool for it, a 6PPC or POSSIBLY, and I say POSSIBLY a 30BR. The trouble with the 30 is getting them GREAT light weight 30 cal bullets up here.

Barrels. So many. Canadian made or the top names that are US made and are seen on all the match reports? Krieger, Bartlein, Shilen, Hart, Gaillard, Smith, McLennan, etc etc etc. Again quite often price and availability determines or do you want to keep our Canadian guys going? They all shoot well and yes a barrel is its own animal from barrel to barrel.

Stocks. What do you want and what application is the rifle used for so you choose the RIGHT stock for the job? McMillan, Robertson, Shehane, Baer are the ones that come to my mind.

Triggers. How good is the factory set up and can it get worked to where I will be happy? or can I just buy an aftermarket trigger and have the BEST?

Optics. How much power do I need? What reticle? Weight an issue? Do I need the Nightforce, March, Sightron, Leupold? Personally, for ease of repair and warranty, there is non other than Leupold and buy in Canada. Others will tell you that Nightforce holds true, and March the only scope guarantees it will hold true 100%(only manufacturer to make this claim) for the 5 year warranty to the ORIGINAL purchaser. Are they worth the extra $$$$$$$$$$$$$?

That about covers it for the rifle parts.

Is weight an issue for the rifle I am building? What is the weight limits if I am going to shoot competitively? Is a muzzle brake allowed or not or do I REALLY NEED one?

These are many things to ponder when moving up to the next level. I think the biggest mistake made today is wanting something that is just NOT PRACTICAL for where you can or cannot shoot. Why build a 1000 yard boomer if you have NO PLACE to shoot it? What fun is shooting it out to say only 200 yards? I guess if it makes you feel like you have a BIGGER package then so be it.

Just remember whatever money you put into the build especially when doing it on a factory action you will NEVER get it back. If you do, you have just RIPPED OFF the next guy and I guess all the power to you. It makes me ill to see what guys pay to have a rifle done up and then try to sell it for. Like I said if they are successful KUDO's to them. Just remember, no matter how many rounds claimed to have been fired down the barrel you automatically consider a re-barrel job. The cost of the asking price has just been dropped 6-700.00 dollars.

Houser this is my take on moving up to the next step. Sorry if I got a little off track but a bit of info to ponder to NOT GET STEERED in the WRONG direction.

Good Luck.

CBY

 

[MHouser]

I want to take my time and do it up right with the proper components.

I'll likely keep the Savage for messing around as it's quite the shooter for a factory rifle.

The one component I would like to reuse is my scope. I just bought the Sightron SIII 10-50x60 w/ Target Dot reticle so hopefully I haven't screwed up purchasing that. I will be taking it out to the range tomorrow for the first time so we'll see how it goes.

My plan is to use the new gun solely for long range target shooting 300-1000 yards (I realize 300 isn't long range) and maybe the odd competition shoot.

I have been reading a lot about the 6mm Dasher and it looks quite interesting.

 

[Ron AKA]

Have not followed the whole thread, but I can highly recommend the Forster Bushing/Bump die. This die can bump the shoulder (or not), plus size the neck or partially size the neck, all in one step. It also can be used as a gauge to measure case length to the shoulder. The Forster bushings are also more consistent in size than the Redding ones. I have mine set up to bump the shoulder 0.001", while bushing sizing two thirds of the neck down to about 0.0013" interference fit. I also use the expander ball to open up the neck 0.0003" to give a final fit of 0.001". Unlike other die manufacturers, Forster locates the expander ball right up near the neck to minimize the possibility of the ball causing concentricity issues. Also just sizing 0.0003" minimizes the possibility of an concentricity error, while at the same time gives the best possible tolerance control of the neck ID. My theory is that the neck ID is more important than the neck OD.

The Ultra Seater die with micrometer is not essential, but certainly is convenient. Once you have your bullet seating depth correct, you just record that setting from the micrometer, and if loading the same bullet design and lot, you can just go back to that setting without having to do the whole setup routine again. Also during the initial set up it is much faster to use, as you know exactly how far you are going up and down to get to the right length.

 

[Mystic Precision]

Are you saying the Type S neck bushing die or Type S full length bushing die is ideal for me?

Type S Neck bushing die if you use a body die
So it's handy to have one of these either way?

I love these dies as it lets me control my sizing exactly where I want for the purpose the ammo will be used for. For F class, zero headspace. for LR plinking or hunting, a bit more clearance. Using shims would be an easy way to adjust but I just turn the lock ring and have at it.

So this die simply bumps but uses a bushing to hold the neck or does it neck size and bump?

As was described above, the Forster die is two dies in one and either operation can be adjusted independently. The bushings are also bevelled differently so that they can get right into the neck shoulder junction which Redding may have problems with.

I want my necks fully sized right to the shoulder. Then I want the shoulder bumped just enough to chamber as desired. So you can either use 2 or 1 die - both methods gets to exactly the same end.

If I was using a bushing die, I wouldn't bother with an expander ball.

Do you really need the micrometer adjustment?

No, you do not need a micrometer adjustment. Even if you want to play with seating depths, you can do it manually. The micrometer adj just makes it easier to repeat and know how far you have moved. None of my inline seaters are micrometer adjustable but I do sell alot of them.

I plan on purchasing the K&M stuff. turning tool kit with carbide mandrel, regular mandrel, expaniron w/ mandrel and pilot jack (whatever that is).

Some of the nicest kit I have seen outside of the real boutique stuff offered by BR gunsmiths/manf.

P.S. Do you know what the Redding die categories represent? i.e. Category I, II and III?

The categories are based on the popularity of the dies and that affects their price.

Cat 1 are the 308, 300WM, 223 stuff. Cat 4 would be a variety of wildcats, golden oldies or newbies like the 6.5X47L and Lapua (not sure exactly where these two fall but they are not in the popular categories at this time).

Cat 4 would be substantially more money for the same gear.

Jerry

 

[Mystic Precision]

I want to take my time and do it up right with the proper components.

I'll likely keep the Savage for messing around as it's quite the shooter for a factory rifle.

The one component I would like to reuse is my scope. I just bought the Sightron SIII 10-50x60 w/ Target Dot reticle so hopefully I haven't screwed up purchasing that. I will be taking it out to the range tomorrow for the first time so we'll see how it goes.

My plan is to use the new gun solely for long range target shooting 300-1000 yards (I realize 300 isn't long range) and maybe the odd competition shoot.

I have been reading a lot about the 6mm Dasher and it looks quite interesting.

Don't sell what you have short. TRUE 1/2 min at 1000yds as a LR plinker is pretty darn impressive.

That is the ability to hit a clay pigeon 80% of the time at 1000yds. I have shot beside a number of mega dollar rigs that couldn't do that despite their costs (or maybe it was driver error )

I have several articles on my website that can help you with a new build but also how to tune what you have now.

Ammo that has little to no vertical is crucial to LR success. You can hit relatively tiny objects at distance if you only have to be concerned with windage.

To improve your consistency and accuracy somemore, swapping in a quality prefit from Shilen or Mcgowen (and of course other makes) is all that is needed (plus proper ammo of course).

I have yet to do any machining to the many actions I have used on my builds and have not seen any need to worry given my accuracy goals.

If the goal is SR BR, get other gear. Hitting pop can sized objects way out there, you just have to know where to hold the cross hair....

Jerry

 

[Mystic Precision]

Cycbb486, AWESOME ADVICE....

Jerry

 

[cycbb486]

Houser you are fine with the scope you have.

Anyways hopefully we have been able to help you out.

 

[MHouser]

You guys have been more than helpful. Thanks.