6.5X55 Swede hot loads?

What's a safe load? common sense dictates it. But there are norms and they are there for something.

What happens to a 94/96/38 action - the CG 63/80 are just that - if a case head fails? The top ring comes off flying, hopefuly in only one or two pieces, the bolt backs off, most of the time it's stopped in the process by the receiver bending, the floorplate pops out the stock explodes....

Check the difference between a M/96 and a M/93 with two escaping holes on the front receiver sides. This one was done on purpose.

93vs96Medium_zps8694e304.jpg


Ref; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?181256-Channeling-P-O-Mauser-blow-up-project

This is a typical 94/96/38 failure to handle escaping gases;

M38Break2.jpg

Failure1aMod.jpg
 
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To report back on H4350. I went shooting last Sunday. Started with 41 Gr and went up to 45.5 Gr.
OAL was 80mm, could not touch the lands and bullets (FMJ) were seated 2/3 down inside neck length. Which was less then one bullet diameter.
Target was 4" circle at 100m. Aim was 6 o'clock in white, off hand from the bench.

41Gr got me 3 in group within circle
41.5Gr got me 3 in group within circle
42Gr got me 2 in group within circle
42.5Gr got me 2 in group within circle
43Gr got me 1.5 in group within circle
43.5Gr got me .9 in group in the center of circle
44Gr got me .9 in group in the center of circle
44.5Gr got me 2.5 in group within circle
45Gr got me 3 in group starting to move outside of the circle
45.5Gr got me 3 in group completely outside of the circle

So max load of 44Gr according to H manual didn't show any signs of pressure.
I went over max by 1.5Gr and no signs of high pressure whatsoever.
Now, if I have had continued maybe I would have hit another sweet spot. It would be nice to be able to figure out speed achieved but I do not have Chrony.
 
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This from development engineer in Finland.
Peter,

You mean Mauser 1896 and 1898; ie. 1898 is classic Mauser 98 and 1896
is Swedish Mauser. If so, Mauser 98 is stronger action than Swedish
Mauser. Although Swedish rifles are very well and beautifully made,
action itself is not very strong. I have seen the Swedish Mauser
actions used here and in Sweden for the .308 and .30-06 rifles, but
that is not recommended. The Mauser 98 actions can be used for rifles
up to .458 Win Mag, but then one must be sure about action origin and
condition.
 
That's why Lapua show two loading categories, one for the 6.5X55 (Mauser - as per original specs) and one for the 6.5X55 SKAN (SE - as per CIP / modern specs)).
 
I used 4350 this year with 140's. got as high as 46 gr, but saw pressure signs.

I suggest RL22 or RL25 if you want to get higher velocity. 4350 is rather fast. It often produces excellent groups.

That's what I have found. RL25, Retumbo, H1000, etc. produce much higher MV's, but best accuracy is with H4350, with H4831 excellent as well.

In my M98 with 26" barrel:

46.0 grs H4350 - 2780 fps
48.0 grs H4831 - 2750 fps
51.0 grs IMR7828 - 2925 fps
54.0 grs of RL25 - 2940 fps
 
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That's what I have found. RL25, Retumbo and H1000 produce much higher MV's, but best accuracy is with H4350, with H4831 excellent as well.

So am I on the right track with powder of choice? Wanted to use RL22 but wasn't available at that time so I went with H4350.
Maybe slower would be more beneficial in long(er) pipe.
Maybe these old worn TRADEX pipes would benefit even more with .265 instead .264 bullets?
 
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Donno which ones you are refrrin to, bu they usually are from take-off or badly broken stocks. Some are from brand new comemrcially reworked actions which are pretty well done.
 
What's a safe load? common sense dictates it. But there are norms and they are there for something.

What happens to a 94/96/38 action - the CG 63/80 are just that - if a case head fails? The top ring comes off flying, hopefuly in only one or two pieces, the bolt backs off, most of the time it's stopped in the process by the receiver bending, the floorplate pops out the stock explodes....

Check the difference between a M/96 and a M/93 with two escaping holes on the front receiver sides. This one was done on purpose.

93vs96Medium_zps8694e304.jpg


Ref; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?181256-Channeling-P-O-Mauser-blow-up-project

This is a typical 94/96/38 failure to handle escaping gases;

M38Break2.jpg

Failure1aMod.jpg
Any idea what the pressure was on those actions when they let go?
Cat
 
Any idea what the pressure was on those actions when they let go?
Cat

Those dramatic pictures show the result of an extremely high pressure situation where some kind of loading error occurred. You don't blow the bottom off of a cartridge and incur the other damage at much less than 100K psi.
 
Thanks Andy, I know that if you fill a case with pistol powder you can cause anything to fail, but there is no epidemic of mausers failing, even the small ring ones. I would like to see the load that made these fail tried on a modern rifle.
 
The failures in the two last pictures (action and cartridge) was created by a (low - load density was 74%) published starting load of IMR4831 using longer than published OAL and 140gr Partition bullet, using Winchester virgin brass.
It's a definitive case orf SEE (as per Norma tech analysis). I have the case and the action in hands.
There is nothing such as fast burning powder or wrong powder involved in this incident.

The two at the top were intentionally blown at around 135 000 PSI.

There is a whole bunch of known incidents in the US and Sweden with either M/94/96/38 and M/41 sniper, a lot (most) of them involves slow burning powder.
 
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The failures in the two last pictures (action and cartridge) was created by a (low - load density was 74%) published starting load of IMR4831 using longer than published OAL and 140gr Partition bullet, using Winchester virgin brass.
It's a definitive case orf SEE (as per Norma tech analysis). I have the case and the action in hands.
There is nothing such as fast burning powder or wrong powder involved in this incident.

Interesting, where this analysis can be found? Would like to read more about it.
 
I never had a reason to drive my 96 very hard (original step barrel)
I used H4350, IMR4831 & Reloader 19 but my loadings never amounted to too much.
Then I played with IMR4895 and the groups shrunk, considerably.
My best loading so far is:
-Hornady #2630 140 grain SP
-Win LRP
-OAL = 3.030"
-Neck sized, with factory crimp.
-Average velocity @ sea level 2460 fps (weather was @ 14/15 degrees with higher humidity).
The load is below published maximums but when I approached max loads the accuracy fell off.
For an old gun (ok, new trigger, new crown, good scope & a really nice new stock) with this loading it out shoots many newer ones, I don't know why but I like it. :)
I'd still like to try rl22 but that's for another day...
 
I had a 96 6.5x55 I use 42gr IMR4350 with 140 bullet worked fine . Got a Voere 6.5x55 98 .Used the same load and had to back of 2 gr because of flat primer and sticky bolt lift. So, a stronger action is not everything!
 
Interesting, where this analysis can be found? Would like to read more about it.

This was from a private communication I had with one Norma Technician and one engineer.
But basically, what they found is published in the Norma Reloading Manual;

Hazard of Too Little Powder
It is obvious to every experienced handloader that it is important not to use too heavy a propellant charge in any given load. However many handloaders do not realize how critical it can be to use too light a propellant charge. This is a particularly critical consideration when using any slow-burning powder. Owing to heavy surface treatment, with inert (deterrent) chemicals that is necessary to slow initial combus¬tion, these powder types are harder to ignite. Generally, the "slower" the powder, the harder it is to ignite. Norma MRP and MRP2 (and similar propellant types from other vendors) fall into this category.

Should the handloader use too light a charge with such a propellant, ineffective ignition can occur. With such a small charge, much primer energy is wasted moving the charge and much primer heat are wasted heating the exposed case interior. As a result, the primer blast might only ignite a small percentage of the powder granules. The granules that are ignited can generate sufficient propellant gas to move the bullet only a few inches.

Because only a small percentage of the charge is ignited, relatively little gas is generated. Hence, as the bullet begins to move into the bore, pressure (and temperature) within the propellant plume decreases rapidly. As a result, the bullet slows and can even stop. In such a load, granules that the primer did not directly ignite do not ignite rapidly (before the buffet moves significantly), as would happen in any normal loading.

Cooling of the propellant cloud allows partially-reacted propellant gases to begin to condense onto the relatively cold, unignited propellant granules. This initiates a chain reaction: Condensation converts gas to a liquid, which dramatically reduces pressure (and temperature) inside the case, this results in even faster condensation, which results in an even more rapid decrease in temperature; once this process begins, almost instantly, chamber pressure drops to almost nothing and the bullet rapidly slows or stops.

Equally, this condensation rapidly transfers hem to the surface of the remaining granules. Since the preceding primer blast and ignition of some granules will have significantly heated those granules (often to nearly ignition temperature) and because some or ail the deterred surface may have burned away from many of the remaining granules (contrary to intuition, sufficiently rapid cooling can "put out" an ignited granule), subsequent ignition and combustion of remaining granules occurs extremely rapidly. The entire remaining charge, which is now located as a single lump directly behind the buffet, can hum before the buffet can move significantly.

As was first studied and proven by the Krupp Commission, circa 1888, whenever the ignited charge is located at one end of a relatively empty chamber (as in this instance). combustion generates a "standing wave" within the combustion chamber. This occurs because, as the charge burns, an initial pressure wave moves toward and reflects from the case head interior surface. Meanwhile, gas flow and changing pressure within the buffet end of the chamber can oppose the progress of the reflected wave. This can
Slow, stop or even reverse the direction of this pressure wave. Whenever this happens, pressure near the peak continues to increase - Las molecules continue to enter this zone (from both sides) faster than molecules leave it; all else being equal, the more molecules are in any given volume of gas the higher the pressure!
In the above situation, average chamber pressure will, no doubt, remain relatively low - often it will never reach normal peak chamber pressure; however, pressure near the peak of the "standing wave" can be several times as great as normal maximum chamber pressure! It is well proven that such a situation can wreck even the soundest gun. The resulting explosion can be lethal.

Generally, the bigger the case, the slower the propellant, and the colder the ambient temperature, the more likely this result is to occur.

CAUTION: Never use charges lighter than the suggested starting charge, as listed in a reputable, modern handloading manual.

NORMA - RELOADING MANUAL 2004 149
 
This was from a private communication I had with one Norma Technician and one engineer.
But basically, what they found is published in the Norma Reloading Manual;


Holly shmoly what a controversial topic. I read, and read and I am yet to see a single scientific analysis on the problem with logical explanation.
Only one consistent findings in all this is the fact that it is happening only in reloading circles. Well, that fact only tells me a lot.
 
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