7mm WSM or NOT?

Obtunded said:
By the time you work up a load for a short 7mm Magnum, you'll have to change seating depth and you'll likely be chasing the lands for all of its sub 1000 round barrel life.
Click to expand...

Ian speaks the truth. I shoot a 7mm-300WSM which is a 300 WSM case necked down to 7mm in long range F class competitions. It is a very accurate cartridge when tuned properly but can be very finicky to get tuned. As Ian says, it eats barrels. From personal experience I can tell you that you will get less than 1000 rds useable life out of a barrel, possibly far less, spitting 180 vld bullets out of a 7WSM.

I have to chase the lands by adding 5 thou to the COL every hundred rds or so.

If you are not a very experienced reloader and shooter this is not the long range certridge for you. I consider myself fairly knowledgeable about these sorts of things but I have to admit this cartridge humbled me greatly until I learned a whole pile of lessons the hard way. Am I pleased with the results now that I've learned my lessons. Absolutely! Would I do it over again if I knew then what I know now? Not a chance!!!!

What do you intend to do with this rifle? If you are a very serious F class competitor with aspirations of competing internationally then maybe it's worth your while. If you want to plink at long range for fun, choose something else like a .308 Winchester or .223 Remington. If you don't think those cut the wind well enough then move up to a .260 Remington or 6mmBR. If you have your heart set on a 7mm then give some serious consideration to a straight .284 Winchester.

If you must go with a 7WSM be prepared to spend lots of $ on barrels and have fits of hair pulling while doing load development. Of course I'm basing this on my experience, yours may vary greatly.
 
Last edited:
DirtDiver_031 said:
Hi Everyone,

challenge:

To build a rifle that:

- can plink at long range and impress myself with
- enter F-Class Open / ORA Precision competitions
- I would rather call 50 inches of wind vs 80 inches.
- cost effective / ie i don't break the bank when i got to range for a day.

Open to recommendations.

thanks in advance.

Sean
Click to expand...

Of all the cals I have shot, the 7mm was the nicest for extreme range plinking. Them 180gr Berger VLD's fly so very very nicely.

The 30 and 338's boot alot and that takes all the fun away for me.

For an extreme range rig, 7mm is the least expensive of the boomers. I also did the 6.5 Mystic/260AI but it wasn't as good beyond 2000yds.

BUT bore life is just as brief. Think 1000rds +/- and then it is set back or redo.

If you wish to compete in F open, bring $$$$ as you need to think in multiple barrels. Big reason I have moved out of FO. My 6.5's are even less money to shoot but it was getting pretty spendy AND the time needed to keep tuning barrels was a big PITA.

Despite all the cals I have used, I spend almost all of my time with my 223 8 twist Savage tactical rig for LR plinking. How far? 1400yds is within the scope elevation and makes a for a great challenge if the wind blows.

How accurate? The gopher at 1000yds is about the size of a 2L pop bottle and we hit it.

Oh yes, doping wind IS alot of fun and part of the appeal of LR shooting. EVERYTHING drifts.

I am now gearing up for F TR and a 223 pushing 90gr Bergers. Yes, it will drift much more then the boomers, but cost is way less, barrel could last a season or more and it is competitive in its class.

If you can call the winds, it doesn't matter what you shoot... or how much you have to adjust.

And there is nothing wrong with using a Savage or Stevens for this build :D

Lots of info and an every increasing number of pics on my website that can help you on your way.

Jerry

PS, don't discount the 6BR. A hoot to shoot on our side of 1 mile.
 
Salutations -

Morning everyone.

First off, thanks for all the info.
It has been very, very helpful.
Relying on your knowledge, experiences and trials and errors
is reducing my OODA loop and "research" time considerably for me, along with the associated $$$$ that go with R&D. This is greatly appreciated. It is helping me make a well informed decision WRT to this initiative.

I know and can appreciate the different schools of thought.
It is the old Apple vs PC arguement, and I know everybody is right.
I know at the end of the day, no matter the hardware, I still have to be able to shoot it.
The question comes down to where I want to invest/throw away my money.

IF you have no interest in reading more background / jump down to the summary.

Background -

Had many successes shooting in service rifle and service pistol, along with the "precision" classes. Got really good at shooting the precision class (along with service disciplines) with my beaten up ancient CF issued C3 / and when i earned it ($$$) I shot my Rem 700 in a McMillan prone with Leupold 4x14 shooting 168grs. I decided it was time to go and try F-Class (something long range and harder). This was all about 10 - 13-ish years ago.
You should have seen my face at 900m when my sighters didn't make it to paper. I knew this was going to be a rough go and that I would need to step up my game in very short order (ie the next shot). It was also the challenge I was looking for (so don't get me wrong). I did manage to get 10 on for score and even got a few in the 10 ring. (enough with the I am awesome story). I learned all about 155gr bullets that day and that I wasn't set up correctly at all for this type of shooting; ammo and equipment wise. As everyone put it - "at least I had fun." I have to admit, yes it was humbling and yes I had a little, not much fun (I like to compete more than just participate). I was able to walk away with a head full of knowledge and was motivated to learn. Also learned that i didn't have the $$$ at the time to fund this. So i shelved it until now.
(you know the whole stars line up bla bla) At the time I decided to focus my energies towards service rifle for CFSAC as - well frankly I was being paid to shoot. I could learn and work on mastrering a skill all the while being supported. The whole get good,
at one thing first rather than do a bunch of stuff badly. I have been doing this very well now and have a bunch of accolades to show for it in all disciplines (rile / pistol / precision).

Now I am at that stage where I am looking to pick up the long range shooting specific discipline again; more of a civilian pursuit. This is in part laying the ground work to transition out of mil life and into shooting as a civilian. People golf - I shoot.

In doing the research for this project. I have to admit, I had a hard time delinking competition shooting at a high level and shooting for hunting. I was/am wired with the must be able to roll in the mud and expect NASCAR performance type thing. So I was trying to do a build that would do everything. A good friend of mine (like a V8 commercial) sorted me out. Use the right tool for the task at hand.

So i was back to looking at a Savage F-Class 6mmBR, so i could get back into long range applications. I also have good friends that have been competing for a number of years at the international level, that are steering me towards 7mm type calibers, as it outperforms 6mmBR and is still relatively cost effective. The whole, well if you are going to reload, you might as well skip the 6mmBR step and go straight to a 7mm type,
you are reloading anyway. I have to admit after reading what you all have to say about barrel burners. I am not super keen on shifting money from ammo to money on barrels type thing. YES I can appreciate that if I want to play, that I have to pay. YES - when i go to a range I love to shoot, and shoot lots. So If it is done in less than 1000 rounds - prob not a good rifle / caliber for me. Based on those numbers. I will shoot out a barrel in a weekend easy. YES I know I will be reloading. I will need something that will be a bit forgiving as i learn - so I guess I am back to 6mmBR again (no prob here with this). To be honest I am not really interested in shooting a 223 bolt / I have an AR already that is setup for competition shooting. Yes I plan to challenge ORA precision matches with it - just to see if I can (for fun). I also don't have a big interest in shooting Palma 308 at this point / the whole feeding 308 ammo. I could have kept my Rem 700 above then (sold it as part of a equipment life-cycle initiative last spring - prob not the best decision as i am learning i could have rebarreled in a diff caliber). Like going to the gas
station. You know you have to fill up / but hate having a V8 engine. So I am looking to do it more cost effectively kinda thing (I own a VW that gets great mileage). Again back to 6mmBR - I think, as 7mm types will burnout barrels to fast for me at this point.

Can anyone provide more info on the .284 Winchester? Anyone using this? Is it good bang for buck?

To Sum up -

I am looking to all of you here with more knowledge and experience - Sort me out please. I am down to Savage F-Class 6mmBR OR depending on what info i can learn about the .284 Winchester. A 54 inch wind call is better than a 71 inch wind call and from what I gather .284 Winchester wont break the bank type thing.

I will continue with my service rifle and pistol disciplines.
Kinda like a crack addict / affter 22 yrs I can't stop and some people golf - I shoot.
I will pickup a more hunting appropriate rilfe / something that is minute of moose ;)
I will look at a build in a couple of years after the arms race (to quote Mystic Precision from a diff thread) plateaus a bit and I have gone up a few more pay incentives.

Hope I didn't bore to many of ya and that this is at least better than the Saturday morning newspaper.

Again thanks for all of your help.

Cheers,

Sean
 
Jordan Smith said:
According to the BR shooters on 6mmBR.com the 7mm WSM and SAUM have better barrel life than the 6.5x284...
Click to expand...


With all due respect, their experience is not typical. Prairieguy competes nationally/internationally with a 7-300WSM and knows this cartridge very well. I also supply barrels to numerous competitive shooters that build and use every manner of 7mm out there, and I can say with great confidence that anythingt greater than 750 compettiive rounds from a 7 WSM is a bonus. You would be extremely optimistic or downright crazy to show up expecting to do well at a competition with a gun that had more than 600 rounds down the pipe.

I am a HUGE fan of the venreable 6BR and to a somewhat lesser extent, the 260. Both are extremely accurate, have reasonable barrel life and have excellent reloading components available. I would go so far as to say that precision reloading for a barrel-buring cartridge is a skill that requires a bit of experience. When you reduce the number of variables when load developing and trouble shooting, you save time, money, barrel life and frustration.

I also believe it is a totally false sense of security shooting a 7mm at long range. I don't care what you shoot, you still need to grasp the fundamentals of reading conditions. Shooting elder Don Hall shooting a clunky old 308 and low BC bullets can still whoop the arses of many a cocky young F-Open shooter shooting the latest and greatest cartridges and bullets. There is no substitute for experience.
 
Last edited:
DirtDiver_031 said:
I have to admit after reading what you all have to say about barrel burners. I am not super keen on shifting money from ammo to money on barrels type thing. YES I can appreciate that if I want to play, that I have to pay. YES - when i go to a range I love to shoot, and shoot lots. So If it is done in less than 1000 rounds - prob not a good rifle / caliber for me. Based on those numbers. I will shoot out a barrel in a weekend easy.
Click to expand...

If you're going through 1000 rounds in a weekend, you're going to have to install a new barrel every couple of weeks, regardless of the cartridge you go with

What do you consider "shot out"? If you want to stay competitive, then you can't expect to put thousands of rounds through any given barrel. If you're just doing it for fun and personal enjoyment, then you might notice 1/2MOA accuracy decline to 3/4MOA after 1000 rounds up until 1500, and then to 1MOA up to 2000 or 3000 rounds. That's just an example, but you get my drift. If you are competing and you need that 1/2MOA capability, then you can't be shooting 1000 rounds a weekend through your rifle without rebarreling every month, or even every week or two.
 
Obtunded said:
With all due respect, their experience is not typical. Prairieguy competes nationally/internationally with a 7-300WSM and knows this cartridge very well. I also supply barrels to numerous competitive shooters that build and use every manner of 7mm out there, and I can say with great confidence that anythingt greater than 750 compettiive rounds from a 7 WSM is a bonus. You would be extremely optimistic or downright crazy to show up expecting to do well at a competition with a gun that had more than 600 rounds down the pipe.

I am a HUGE fan of the venreable 6BR and to a somewhat lesser extent, the 260. Both are extremely accurate, have reasonable barrel life and have excellent reloading components available. I would go so far as to say that precision reloading for a barrel-buring cartridge is a skill that requires a bit of experience. When you reduce the number of variables when load developing and trouble shooting, you save time, money, barrel life and frustration.

I also believe it is a totally false sense of security shooting a 7mm at long range. I don't care what you shoot, you still need to grasp the fundamentals of reading conditions. Shooting elder Don Hall shooting a clunky old 308 and low BC bullets can still whoop the arses of many a cocky young F-Open shooter shooting the latest and greatest cartridges and bullets. There is no substitute for experience.
Click to expand...

True, but experience combined with superior equipment leads to greater success. ;)

Interesting, I'll definitely default to guys with more experience with this stuff, but I've read in a few different places on 6mmBR.com that the 7WSM and SAUM have exceeded the barrel life of the 6.5-284 for a few different users. Some guys are claiming about 900 to 1000 rounds of useful accuracy for the 6.5, and others are claiming that they are at over 1000 rounds with the 7WSM and still have some life left.

I suppose that barrel life is subject to different user requirements and standards, and different barrel quality and wear resistance. Some barrels and steels wear better than others. Some guys shoot faster than others in practice, etc. I have ZERO experience with match shooting, personally, so I'm just going by what I've read and experienced myself. Thanks for your input. Based on the reports you've received, what is the expected barrel life of the typical SS barrel you sell that gets chambered in 6.5 vs. 7WSM?
 
i too looked at the 7wsm but i heard barrel erosion to be almost as bad as the 6.5x284! now if i had a big pocket book and a stash of barrels i would choose it because it really is a great caliber for long range.
 
For your requirements my first choice would be a 6 dasher, second choice would be a 6.5x284, third would be a 7WSM.

And my first choice would put the second and third very distant.
 
Jordan Smith said:
True, but experience combined with superior equipment leads to greater success. ;)

Interesting, I'll definitely default to guys with more experience with this stuff, but I've read in a few different places on 6mmBR.com that the 7WSM and SAUM have exceeded the barrel life of the 6.5-284 for a few different users. Some guys are claiming about 900 to 1000 rounds of useful accuracy for the 6.5, and others are claiming that they are at over 1000 rounds with the 7WSM and still have some life left.
Click to expand...

Don't believe everything you read on the interweb.

It's quite possible that "some guys" are finding they can prolong the life of a 7WSM out past that of their 6.5x.284. There are so many variables I would be a fool to argue it is not possible. That said it's important to compare apples with apples. To draw a true comparison it would be benefical to know how hot were they running the 6.5's as compared to their 7mm's? Were they running heavy bullets at max load out of one and lighter (comparitively) bullets with a lighter load out of the other?

Finally, What do these internet shooters consider to be useful accuracy?

I have never owned a 6.5x.284 so I cannot offer any personal comparisons on barrel life.

What I can tell you is this.... For shooting my 7mm-300WSM in F-Open competitions, I require the gun to shoot sub .5MOA. In fact I consider .5MOA to be on the poor side of useful for my purposes. Also, I run the gun at the outer edge of the envelope which has a big negative impact on what I consider to be the useful life. I use very hot loads to push a 180 Berger well over 3000 fps. If I dialed the muzzle velocity back down to 2850 fps I have no doubt I'd extend my barrel life but then I'd be giving up every advantage this cartridge has over the .284 Winchester.

Having learned how to handload for this hotrod I am able to consistently get 5 shot groups in the .2 MOA to .3 MOA range. Feel free to call BS if you want but it's true. The cost I pay for this is that I am doomed to be forever chasing the lands and fiddling around with seating depth and replacing barrels with all too much fequency.

In my experience the 7WSM is not a cartridge where you can pour in powder, stuff a bullet on top and expect great results. Shoot a 6BR if that's what you plan to do.

When my groups start to open up and I cannot do better than .5MOA it's time for me to throw the barrel way and replace it. I can attest from personal experience that I have reached that point at substantially less than 1000 rds for the last two barrels.

Could I continue to use the barrel past 1000 rds? Sure, if I was willing to accept groups of .5MOA to .75 MOA or more. That's more than adequate for long range plinking or hunting but it's of no use whatsoever to me if I'm trying to win any serious F class match.
 
prairieguy said:
When my groups start to open up and I cannot do better than .5MOA it's time for me to throw the barrel way and replace it. I can attest from personal experience that I have reached that point at substantially less than 1000 rds for the last two barrels.
.
Click to expand...

I feel your pain. Been there, couldn't deal with the headache:D

For F class, we throw away barrels that many factory rifles would strive to achieve NEW. The game is simply too competitive to get an errant 4.

And there is nothing more painfully frustrating then having a barrel go south during a match. Tossing a 4 by 1/8" after shooting 4 V bulls in a row and no major wind changes is pain I don't wish on any competitor.

Useable bore life is about 30 to 50% MORE then accurate F class bore life.

Remember, ALL of our shots count!

Jerry
 
prairieguy said:
That said it's important to compare apples with apples. To draw a true comparison it would be benefical to know how hot were they running the 6.5's as compared to their 7mm's? Were they running heavy bullets at max load out of one and lighter (comparitively) bullets with a lighter load out of the other?

Finally, What do these internet shooters consider to be useful accuracy?
Click to expand...

That was kind of the point of my 3rd paragraph, which you cut out of the quote ;) It is all so subjective, and really depends on a lot of variables.

prairieguy said:
I have never owned a 6.5x.284 so I cannot offer any personal comparisons on barrel life.
Click to expand...

I have zero experience burning out a barrel from either cartridge. No disrespect intended, but the guys that I'm talking about have burned out 6.5-284 barrels as well as 7WSM barrels. They are not just random guys, but authors of published articles on 6mmBR, who are competitive shooters. That is my reason for giving them any credibility or credence. It is not like we're comparing the barrel life of a 6BR to a 7RUM, here. As you and I have both said, the 6.5-284 and 7WSM are probably quite comparable, and if you changed any number of variables or criteria, you could probably sway the argument in either direction. Thanks for your comments! I've done a lot of long-range shooting and hunting, but I am just now starting to get interested in competitive match shooting, so I always like to hear from the guys who have BTDT.
 
If your stuck on 7mm go with a straight .284 win get a premium barrel at 32" use the barrel to get you over 2900fps with 180gr bergers.
The rifle that won the Manitoba Fclass shoot last year was 32" Tru-Flite/284 win, Barnard Action, Robertson stock.The nut behind the bolt was tight, he can shoot Barry
I shot this gun its a shooter, but it won,t shoot any better than the 223rem with 90gr at 300 to 600 and even 800 some times. There just to much recoilwith the 284win
If you really want to make a F class rifle that just might surprise everyone, keep a eye how Jerry does with his 22/250 & 90gr Bergers it sure looks promissing .
I am building one but not quite same as Jerry is using but will shoot the 90 vld bergers in F/O let you know when testing starts when weather warms
manitou
 
Hi everyone,

thanks for all the input here. Been very, very helpful.

I think at this point, I will be down to earth and be realistic. I will have to bench "the build" for now and learn more. I will start out / as i am starting out (WRT civilian shooting) / with the Savage F-Class in 6mmBR, this will meet my intent and end state at this point in time. As i evolve and my knowledge and skills develop - I will venture into the 6mmDasher and then eventually into something more application specific, and then "the build" :)

Thanks again for all the input and hope to give you all a run on the firing line. If any of you are in Ottawa. I plan to get out for a few events this summer and get my feet wet. Please feel free to say hi ( i will be easy to pick out ).

Thanks,
Sean
 
Sean, Looking forward to shaking your hand at Connaught this summer. You are approching this from a very sensible direction. The 6br will be a wonderful place to start. Going out and shooting whatever you choose, as much as you can will help you decide on your next step.

I've stuck with . 308 in F/Tr class so that I don't need to make all these tough choices. I like to say that F/TR shooters change barrels because we get bored with them, not because they wear out!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom