8.5" Grizzly's pre-order!

[pricedo]

Small Arms Review, February 2008, has a very good article on velocity vs. bbl length in shotguns.

In the aforementioned tests, the velocity of a 1 ounce slug was 1,117 feet per second from a 6-7/8" barrel, compared to about 1,560 fps for a full-sized shotgun

An approx. 2" increase in barrel length would close the gap even further.

Point taken.........do the ballistics math as regards kinetic energy & you'll probably come to the conclusion that a 12 gauge, 1 oz., soft lead slug traveling in the above discussed velocity range would result in a dead & very well ventilated black bear at 10 - 15 yards assuming a modicum of shot placement skill on the part of the shooter.

As I've said before.......everybody to their own.......if you want a shotgun with a 8.5" barrel go for it.........I'm sure CanAm might even manufacture & sell you asbestos mustache & eyelid guards to go with the gun.

Apparently there is a 12" minimum barrel length for a hunting gun in BC......whether or not that limit extends to a defensive shotgun is something I would discuss with the Game & Fish & Police authorities in my particular jurisdiction BEFORE venturing out into the woods with the subject firearm.

** A word of caution......even if you are a USA/CDN dualie don't even think about taking one of these short-barreled shotties into the United States. By the time you are released from Rikers Island they'll be hunting with laser rifles. The Yanks don't like short-barreled shotties & Norincos & the subject firearm is both.

 

[Claybuster]

YUP!........in a perfect & non-firearms phobic world..........and Ontario is neither perfect nor non-firearms phobic.

Good luck explaining that you aren't hunting to the new McGuintyized OPP or MNR if you're caught with a shotgun & slugs in the Ontario bush in July..

In July this would apply to any shotgun with slugs. If any gun will create a problem with a CO then I might as well have have 4 or 5 in the magazine instead of two and my lawyer on speed dial. Limited to just two with a bear licence in August I'd just as soon have a double sxs with rebounding hammers and longer barrels. In this situation the Outlaw would be a better choice than the 8" Grizzly because the OAL is the same but the barrels are longer.

In the aforementioned tests, the velocity of a 1 ounce slug was 1,117 feet per second from a 6-7/8" barrel, compared to about 1,560 fps for a full-sized shotgun

Accepting those figures as accurate that's about a 30 per cent reduction in muzzle velocity and takes a hard hitting slug and slows it to less than a soft skeet load. No thanks. Giving up that much hitting power is too great a price to pay to be fashionable.

 

[pricedo]

In July this would apply to any shotgun with slugs. If any gun will create a problem with a CO then I might as well have have 4 or 5 in the magazine instead of two and my lawyer on speed dial. Limited to just two with a bear licence in August I'd just as soon have a double sxs with rebounding hammers and longer barrels. In this situation the Outlaw would be a better choice than the 8" Grizzly because the OAL is the same but the barrels are longer.


Accepting those figures as accurate that's about a 30 per cent reduction in muzzle velocity and takes a hard hitting slug and slows it to less than a soft skeet load. No thanks. Giving up that much hitting power is too great a price to pay to be fashionable.

Agreed & agreed on all points.

As a licensed Ontario Prospector I have been in the bush in the spring & summer with a defensive shotgun (a pistol griped Win. Model 1200 at the time) & slugs.........the old Ontario spring bear license was a perfect Ontario CCW for smoothing over legal waves.....I heard that a rich anti bought & paid for the Ontario government of the day (a Canadian Conservative {another proof that the words Canadian & Conservative are oxymorons - mutually exclusive} government) & the spring bear license is no longer available.

I cannot overstate how impressed I am with my 12.5" Grizzly shotgun as regards reliability, point-ability, accuracy & pack sack portability.

26" OAL Legal limiting factor: To stay out of the restricted/useless category these shotguns have to have an OAL of at least 26" & I'd just as soon have an extra 4" of barrel to improve ballistics & accuracy than the presence of a huge useless appendage of a stock to make up the required OAL.

I'd advise future short-barreled shottie purchasers to buy the 12.5" Grizzly rather than the 8.5" model when they become available if they intend to acquire a defensive shotgun.

 

[Gatehouse]

1100fps is about the velocity that a slug is going at 100 yards if shot from a "regular" shotgun. Still very capable of killing.

 

[pricedo]

1100fps is about the velocity that a slug is going at 100 yards if shot from a "regular" shotgun. Still very capable of killing.

I'd buy a 8.5" DA Grizzly except that at $399 it is at least $100 over priced.

I'm guessing that Norinco is probably cranking those things out the doors of it's Chinese factories for less than 1/4 of the asking price.

 

[Foxer]

Over what??........a shotgun with a 9" barrel??

No, over a 12 inch i believe

Any data from a known manufacturer we can refer to more specific than "Someone" ??

known manufacturer? There IS only one manufacturer.

However - i'm pretty sure the person in question was qualified to read a chrony for god's sake

Look it up - there was a discussion on it for the dlask guns a ways back.

You need to write a book called "FOXERS FAMOUS FANTASY & FACTUAL QUOTES" & at least then you'll have a rock solid reference for some of your more fanciful & "chuckle generating" statements & unnamed quotes on political, ballistic & just about any other topic in the domain of human endeavor.

Or you could, y'know, get off your lazy ass and look stuff up like any normal intelligent person would

Quite true.... every law abiding person should be allowed to own any firearm of their choosing regardless of how outlandish it is in the opinion of others...... but there is nothing wrong in discussing the relative merits of various firearms on a firearms discussion board without being pegged as a troll by some of our more volatile & indiscreet members.

Sure. Unless you're a troll of course but - you wouldn't know anything about that i'm sure right?

 

[Foxer]

I'm guessing that Norinco is probably cranking those things out the doors of it's Chinese factories for less than 1/4 of the asking price.

Sure. Then tack on shipping. Then tack on the cost of carrying the inventory necessary to get that price. Then tack on all your associated business costs. Then throw in the costs of warranty work and such. And, if you dont' object TOO much, perhaps a small profit for having gone thru the effort in the first place

It's a specialty gun - shortened mag and barrel. Doesn't seem terribly overpriced to me. But - if you don't want one, don't buy one.

 

[Walnutz]

If you are carrying a defence shotgun in the bush holding up to 8 shells how can you not just say your going shooting?? why would it be a better idea to have a bear tag? is there something im not aware of?

 

[Foxer]

1100fps is about the velocity that a slug is going at 100 yards if shot from a "regular" shotgun. Still very capable of killing.

And with the extra 2 inches on the barrel, you're likely pretty close to the velocities that buckshot is normally shot at.

Plenty good enough to do in a bear.

 

[manbearpig]

In July this would apply to any shotgun with slugs. If any gun will create a problem with a CO then I might as well have have 4 or 5 in the magazine instead of two and my lawyer on speed dial. Limited to just two with a bear licence in August I'd just as soon have a double sxs with rebounding hammers and longer barrels. In this situation the Outlaw would be a better choice than the 8" Grizzly because the OAL is the same but the barrels are longer.


Accepting those figures as accurate that's about a 30 per cent reduction in muzzle velocity and takes a hard hitting slug and slows it to less than a soft skeet load. No thanks. Giving up that much hitting power is too great a price to pay to be fashionable.

when it comes to barrel length, there are greatly diminishing returns - especially at lengths that short.
if those stats are from a 6 7/8" barrel, then adding 1.625" of barrel length will affect that muzzle velocity dramatically. you cant quote a '30 percent reduction in velocity' until you see the data from an 8.5" barrel.

I'd buy a 8.5" DA Grizzly except that at $399 it is at least $100 over priced.

I'm guessing that Norinco is probably cranking those things out the doors of it's Chinese factories for less than 1/4 of the asking price.

im not happy about the $100 markup either - no doubt these cost less to make than the $310 12.5" grizzlies with chokes/GRs - but the only other 8.5" option costs twice as much.

 

[Gatehouse]

I'd buy a 8.5" DA Grizzly except that at $399 it is at least $100 over priced.

I'm guessing that Norinco is probably cranking those things out the doors of it's Chinese factories for less than 1/4 of the asking price.

I've got no idea about pricing, although I find sometimes the shorter the barrels get on the same gun, the higher the price tag

8.5" shotgun doesn't appeal to me that much, anyway. I'm just blabbing about velocity. I like the mag fed shotgun idea for a gun you keep beside the bed, though. Quick to load and unload, but I'd still prefer 12-14" barrel.

 

[NiceRice858]

Are these restricted if you slap an 870 folding stock on them? A 12.5" barreled 870 clone with a pistol grip / folding stock would sure be handy in the summer when I'm scouting an area out.

 

[manbearpig]

8.5" shotgun doesn't appeal to me that much, anyway.

the only reason it appeals to me is that this is the shortest, yet still fully-functional pump shotgun you can have.
with a hogue short LOP stock itll come in at just a tad over 26". thats mighty compact -- and with a fixed full stock still more useful than a pistol-gripped or folding stock gun IMO.

Are these restricted if you slap an 870 folding stock on them? A 12.5" barreled 870 clone with a pistol grip / folding stock would sure be handy in the summer when I'm scouting an area out.

restricted.

Non-restricted firearm
an ordinary rifle, shotgun or combination gun that is not described below as being restricted or prohibited.

Restricted firearm

* a handgun that is not a prohibited firearm;
* a semi-automatic, centre-fire rifle or shotgun with a barrel length less than 470 mm (18.5 inches) that is not prohibited;
* a rifle or shotgun that can fire when its overall length is reduced by folding, telescoping or some other means to less than 660 mm (26 inches);
* any firearm prescribed as restricted (including some long guns).

Prohibited firearm

* a handgun with a barrel length of 105 mm (4.1 inches) or less;
* a handgun designed or adapted to discharge 25 or 32 calibre ammunition;
* a rifle or shotgun that has been altered to make it less than 660 mm (26 inches) in overall length;
* a rifle or shotgun that has been altered to make the barrel length less than 457 mm (18 inches) where the overall firearm length is 660 mm (26 inches) or more;
* an automatic firearm and a converted automatic firearm;
* any firearm prescribed as prohibited.

 

[pricedo]

Are these restricted if you slap an 870 folding stock on them? A 12.5" barreled 870 clone with a pistol grip / folding stock would sure be handy in the summer when I'm scouting an area out.

Are these restricted if you slap an 870 folding stock on them?

If the "folded" shotgun can be fired when it is less than 26" OAL it is a restricted firearm.

My Takedown Browning BLR can be disassembled to pieces that are less than 26" OAL BUT it cannot be fired in the take down mode & therefore remains non-restricted.

If the gun had a threaded screw together barrel & the break-point was ahead of the action & the gun could be fired when it was in the take down mode & was less than 26" OAL then it would be classed as a restricted firearm regardless of whether it was in take down mode or full length.

 

[NiceRice858]

Gotcha, well that sucks. I'll have to stick with my Defender 1200 then. With the pistol grip / folding stock it's barely more than 27 inches (folded up) and can fit 7+1 shells.

 

[farmer47]

dlask 8.5 guns hold three shells plus one . i would think can ams version would do the same or am i missing something .

 

[pricedo]

Gotcha, well that sucks. I'll have to stick with my Defender 1200 then. With the pistol grip / folding stock it's barely more than 27 inches (folded up) and can fit 7+1 shells.

I'll have to stick with my Defender 1200 then.

That was my Northern Ontario black bear CCW gun until the DA Grizzly came along.

I had a muzzle break drilled into the barrel of mine (the 1200). Previous to that it would really snap my wrists when firing slugs with the stock folded in.

 

[manbearpig]

Gotcha, well that sucks. I'll have to stick with my Defender 1200 then. With the pistol grip / folding stock it's barely more than 27 inches (folded up) and can fit 7+1 shells.

^and weighs twice as much fully loaded.

i suspect that many people interested in these want something compact to carry in the bush. an extended mag full of 12ga shells makes a gun heavy and unwieldy - and blocked to 2 rounds in the bush its simply useless dead weight/bulk.

 

[NiceRice858]

Yeah it will be my Vancouver Island black bear gun for when I'm fishing on the Nitnat river and scouting around for deer habitat in August.

I have one of those "shells" that lets you shoot .22lr, which turns my 1200 into an impressive bush gun.

Why would you block your self defense bush gun to 2 rounds? You're not hunting with it.

 

[manbearpig]

Why would you block your self defense bush gun to 2 rounds? You're not hunting with it.

^tell that to the CO.

besides, if you cant kill an attacking animal with the first 2-3 shells, you are likely #%@$ed anyway. i highly doubt anyone is going to be given the opportunity to take 8 shots at a charging animal.