8X63 Swedish Roll Call

Andy

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Who remembers this? It all ended in 2007.

Marstar_8X63_zps8fd1b321.jpg


I was all in from Day One and bought several thousand rounds, bought a reamer and rechambered some mausers, and have been using the pulled down bullets and powder ever since - I just did 250 rounds last night which put me on this nostalgia trip.

I saw the potential immediately and went "all out", established a website (now in "reconstruction mode"), bought paraphernalia such as dummy rounds, an ammo can and the poster shown below and can claim to have handled a real m/40 owned by a friend from Minnesota.


SwedishAmmoPosterQuarterSize_zpse0eda38d.jpg


Who else was all over this?
 
I bought ten thousand rounds of that stuff. Two batches of 5000 rounds each in big wooden crates filled with 20 cardboard boxes of 250 rounds each on belts. The boxes and ammo were mostly in excellent condition other than a few with water marks and of course some were falling apart at the corners. I was lucky, I ordered it all without belts but they were shipped in the belts anyway. That was good for me because I sold the belts to a fellow in the US that was traveling through on vacation and he was always looking for that sort of thing. Especially in new condition. My overall cost was around $50/1000 delivered by Can Par.

It is darn good ammo. Corrosive primed of course but that isn't a problem as long as the barrel is cleaned properly after. Surprisingly, it is very similar to the 8mm Gibbs in performance. I had also picked up a reamer and unlike Andy I only did up one rifle. I did it on a sportered 98 action that had already been opened up for 30-06 length cartridges. Back then, barrels in excellent condition chambered for the 8x57 could be picked up at gun shows for $10. No such luck today.

The ammo as is shoots very well. One moa groups are not unusual. I tried two different barrels. The first was a 29in bbl because I was looking for a new Elk Rifle and wanted as much velocity as possible. I could never get that barrel to shoot well. I then replaced the barrel with the standard K length barrel that looked to have been removed from an exc to unissued K98, replete with all the Nazi stamps. Now, this barrel was a whole different story. It did and still does shoot very well as long as I do my part.

I would rate this rifle to be every bit as effective as my 338-06 with 225 grain bullets. Chronographed velocities on this rifle are kissing right on 2600fps and trajectories are almost identical. I pull the fmjs and replace them with 200grn Sierra SBT Game Kings. I don't even replace the powder. I have checked several different boxes to pull bullets from cartridges and weigh the components. They are very consistent. The brass is all within .35 grains in weight and the powder charges are within .4 grains and the bullets are all within .25 grains in weight.

There is one more thing about this ammo which was obviously built for machine guns, it has very little run out. There was a lot of care taken to make this ammunition accurate. Considering its end use purpose that is interesting in itself.

By the way, there is an extremely good reason for the M40 rifles to be equipped with a muzzle break. If you are recoil shy, this ammo is not for you.

Andy, I think I sent you a couple of 8mm Gibbs cases for comparison back in the day. I think you can verify they are very close. Because I was unsure of the powder type the 8x63 was originally loaded with, I used 8mm Gibbs loading data from the PO Ackley manuals as a starting point when I reloaded some of this ammo for hunting purposes. I will admit, I ended up adding weight to the butt and fore end as well as installing a surge tube filled half way with mercury to reduce felt recoil. Even after that, I wore a Past recoil pad even while hunting.

Your friend in the US was an extremely lucky fellow to find that M40. Word is that most of those were sold to Israel and broken down for components for spare parts or rebuilt into rifles more suitable to their supply system.
 
I understand that it was surplused by Sweden to the Dominican Republic in the 1970's and then to Marstar in the early 2000's. That's a lot of travel, but this ammo was obviously well-treated along the way, as I have shots several hundreds rounds of it and 100% have gone "bang" - it's more than 70 years old. There are perhaps 2-3% that have cracked necks, but it's all still "live".

The bullets are sleek 218 gr FMJ nickel-plated steel jacketed (lead core) beauties, and the powder (a military flake) has a burn rate in the range of IMR4064 to Varget. I use it in everything from 243 to 308 to 8X57 and even in my 10.4X38 Swiss Vetterli and Swedish Rolling Blocks in 12.17X44!

8X63Swedish218grCuproNickelBullets_zpsfde98767.jpg


8X63SwedishPowder_zpsec265614.jpg
 
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I bought ten thousand rounds of that stuff. Two batches of 5000 rounds each in big wooden crates filled with 20 cardboard boxes of 250 rounds each on belts. The boxes and ammo were mostly in excellent condition other than a few with water marks and of course some were falling apart at the corners. I was lucky, I ordered it all without belts but they were shipped in the belts anyway. That was good for me because I sold the belts to a fellow in the US that was traveling through on vacation and he was always looking for that sort of thing. Especially in new condition. My overall cost was around $50/1000 delivered by Can Par.

It is darn good ammo. Corrosive primed of course but that isn't a problem as long as the barrel is cleaned properly after. Surprisingly, it is very similar to the 8mm Gibbs in performance. I had also picked up a reamer and unlike Andy I only did up one rifle. I did it on a sportered 98 action that had already been opened up for 30-06 length cartridges. Back then, barrels in excellent condition chambered for the 8x57 could be picked up at gun shows for $10. No such luck today.

The ammo as is shoots very well. One moa groups are not unusual. I tried two different barrels. The first was a 29in bbl because I was looking for a new Elk Rifle and wanted as much velocity as possible. I could never get that barrel to shoot well. I then replaced the barrel with the standard K length barrel that looked to have been removed from an exc to unissued K98, replete with all the Nazi stamps. Now, this barrel was a whole different story. It did and still does shoot very well as long as I do my part.

I would rate this rifle to be every bit as effective as my 338-06 with 225 grain bullets. Chronographed velocities on this rifle are kissing right on 2600fps and trajectories are almost identical. I pull the fmjs and replace them with 200grn Sierra SBT Game Kings. I don't even replace the powder. I have checked several different boxes to pull bullets from cartridges and weigh the components. They are very consistent. The brass is all within .35 grains in weight and the powder charges are within .4 grains and the bullets are all within .25 grains in weight.

There is one more thing about this ammo which was obviously built for machine guns, it has very little run out. There was a lot of care taken to make this ammunition accurate. Considering its end use purpose that is interesting in itself.

By the way, there is an extremely good reason for the M40 rifles to be equipped with a muzzle break. If you are recoil shy, this ammo is not for you.

Andy, I think I sent you a couple of 8mm Gibbs cases for comparison back in the day. I think you can verify they are very close. Because I was unsure of the powder type the 8x63 was originally loaded with, I used 8mm Gibbs loading data from the PO Ackley manuals as a starting point when I reloaded some of this ammo for hunting purposes. I will admit, I ended up adding weight to the butt and fore end as well as installing a surge tube filled half way with mercury to reduce felt recoil. Even after that, I wore a Past recoil pad even while hunting.

Your friend in the US was an extremely lucky fellow to find that M40. Word is that most of those were sold to Israel and broken down for components for spare parts or rebuilt into rifles more suitable to their supply system.
I have an Israeli 7.62 Mauser that is the recipient of at least a receiver from one of those very scarce m/40 8X63 Swedes.I had always wondered about the "SS" stamping on the receiver and only found out not that long ago that they are the initials for Sten Stenmo,the Swedish weapons inspector on duty at the time they were made up.The receiver on my rifle is also factory coded as manufactured as a German K98k as 337 1939,which from what I understand is rather uncommon in itself.Kind of glad I hung onto this rifle as I darn near sold it off a number of years ago.Had no real idea of it's history.
 
I also got a "few boxes" of 8X63 from Marstar. I bought a reamer and reloading dies and have never looked back. I have a 1919 converted, a FN98, and a T/C Pro hunter that started life as a 30/06. I Had Ron Smith rebore the barrel to 8mm and rechamber it to 8X63. One other franken rifle was a 98 action with a MG34 barrel installed.Shot very well.
The FN98 is my go to rifle for everything from deer to moose. I find 175gr.sierra pro hunters to be very accurate.

Russ...
 
bjmurata, I have never seen one up close and personal. Is the receiver on your rifle milled to accept the longer cartridge or is the mag well opened up at the rear???

I have a Norwegian K98 that was refurbed to 30-06 and it has the mill cut to the receiver as well as an extended mag at the front and a modified feed ramp. G29/40, 660 1940

I also have one that was converted to 7.62 Nato by the Norwegians. There were three of them when I bought it. Parts have been force matched. What was unusual about it is that eh receiver has the cut out for the 06 cartridge length and it retains the extended mag box. The barrel is purpose made with the Nato chamber but is 3/8 in shorter. The stock has been used on at least three different rifles. There are two numbers stamped into the butt plate, none of which match any of the numbers on the receiver. Nice rifle and reasonably accurate. model 98, S42/1939

That's why I'm asking about your Swede altered by Israel. It's in 7.62 and if the receiver was modified at the front, they should still have been able to use the extended mag wells just like the Norwegians. More for curiosity sake than anything else.
 
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powder in 8x63

Andy, the powder in some of my cartridges is identical to that in your pics. For the most part though, it is more like a short cut extruded powder. Weights and velocities are equal though as is volume in the case. Likely the same powder with a different shape??? Maybe Ganderite could shed some light on this.
 
bjmurata, I have never seen one up close and personal. Is the receiver on your rifle milled to accept the longer cartridge or is the mag well opened up at the rear???

I have a Norwegian K98 that was refurbed to 30-06 and it has the mill cut to the receiver as well as an extended mag at the front and a modified feed ramp. G29/40, 660 1940

I also have one that was converted to 7.62 Nato by the Norwegians. There were three of them when I bought it. Parts have been force matched. What was unusual about it is that eh receiver has the cut out for the 06 cartridge length and it retains the extended mag box. The barrel is purpose made with the Nato chamber but is 3/8 in shorter. The stock has been used on at least three different rifles. There are two numbers stamped into the butt plate, none of which match any of the numbers on the receiver. Nice rifle and reasonably accurate. model 98, S42/1939

That's why I'm asking about your Swede altered by Israel. It's in 7.62 and if the receiver was modified at the front, they should still have been able to use the extended mag wells just like the Norwegians. More for curiosity sake than anything else.
bearhunter, I'll take a good look at it over the next day or two,have a couple of sick cats hogging my time at the moment,maybe compare it to my Portuguese K98k.I know there is no cut in the rear of the receiver shank as in the Norwegian rifles.If you have a copy of Crown Jewels check out the section on the m/39 and m/40 rifles,my receiver appears identical to those illustrated at first glance.I'll take a better look at it a bit later.
 
I too bought a case, and still have a substantial amount of powder and bullets. Great powder. However, I found my K98 didn't like the bullets, a lot of them keyhole. Perhaps I got a little too enthusiastic with the bullet puller squeezed 'em out of spec.
 
Andy, the powder in some of my cartridges is identical to that in your pics. For the most part though, it is more like a short cut extruded powder. Weights and velocities are equal though as is volume in the case. Likely the same powder with a different shape??? Maybe Ganderite could shed some light on this.

Now that is interesting. I have only pulled about 10 lbs of powder and have not encountered anything but the pictured flake powder, so I will have to be very careful with the next lot I pull so I don't mix powders. Can you post a closeup pic of the powder like I did?


bearhunter, I'll take a good look at it over the next day or two,have a couple of sick cats hogging my time at the moment,maybe compare it to my Portuguese K98k.I know there is no cut in the rear of the receiver shank as in the Norwegian rifles.If you have a copy of Crown Jewels check out the section on the m/39 and m/40 rifles,my receiver appears identical to those illustrated at first glance.I'll take a better look at it a bit later.

Very interesting, but this will go nowhere without suitable pics. Can you take some good closeups and share them here? If you don't know how to post, I can do it - just ask.


I too bought a case, and still have a substantial amount of powder and bullets. Great powder. However, I found my K98 didn't like the bullets, a lot of them keyhole. Perhaps I got a little too enthusiastic with the bullet puller squeezed 'em out of spec.

I have pulled bullets using three methods:

1. Kinetic: if it's only a few, or if I seated a bullet too deep and need to back it out a bit;
2. Collet: if there are more than a few, and the ogive on the bullet offers enough flat to grip; and
3. "Destructive": using another empty cartridge, or a piece of metal barstock with a bullet-sized hole drilled through it. Used if all you want is to salvage bullets and powder and the brass will be discarded. Insert the bullet portion, wiggle back and forth until the neck is distorted and its grip on the bullet is broken, pull the bullet out with your fingers, and repeat.

For the 8X63 when I have hundreds to pull, #1 is agonizingly slow. #2 won't work (no ogive to grip). I did 250 on the weekend in about an hour total using #3. Very fast and no bullet damage, but the cartridge necks are distorted. Most could be restored by sizing.
 
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Now that is interesting. I have only pulled about 10 lbs of powder and have not encountered anything but the pictured flake powder, so I will have to be very careful with the next lot I pull so I don't mix powders. Can you post a closeup pic of the powder like I did?




Very interesting, but this will go nowhere without suitable pics. Can you take some good closeups and share them here? If you don't know how to post, I can do it - just ask.




I have pulled bullets using three methods:

1. Kinetic: if it's only a few, or if I seated a bullet too deep and need to back it out a bit;
2. Collet: if there are more than a few, and the ogive on the bullet offers enough flat to grip; and
3. "Destructive": using another empty cartridge, or a piece of metal barstock with a bullet-sized hole drilled through it. Used if all you want is to salvage bullets and powder and the brass will be discarded. Insert the bullet portion, wiggle back and forth until the neck is distorted and its grip on the bullet is broken, pull the bullet out with your fingers, and repeat.

For the 8X63 when I have hundreds to pull, #1 is agonizingly slow. #2 won't work (no ogive to grip). I did 250 on the weekend in about an hour total using #3. Very fast and no bullet damage, but the cartridge necks are distorted. Most could be restored by sizing.

Andy,I'll see what I can do about some pictures,I have a Photobucket account but the limiting factor is the ancient,mediocre quality camera I currently own.Might be a good excuse to upgrade as I would like to start posting photos of some of my herd anyway in the various forums.
Getting back to the receiver of my rifle,I can't see any differences in the machining of the feed ramp or anything else for that matter that has had any extra mods done to them.And according to what I'm reading on the Gunboards forum stateside some much more knowledgeable guys are saying the Swedes just re-chambered the K98's and added a muzzle brake to the rifle.I compared my Portuguese K98 receiver to the Israeli and they certainly appear the same to me,admittedly by eye.When you converted your rifles over to 8X63 did you have to do any modifying to the rifles except as noted above?
 
Quote Originally Posted by bearhunter View Post

Andy, the powder in some of my cartridges is identical to that in your pics. For the most part though, it is more like a short cut extruded powder. Weights and velocities are equal though as is volume in the case. Likely the same powder with a different shape??? Maybe Ganderite could shed some light on this.
Now that is interesting. I have only pulled about 10 lbs of powder and have not encountered anything but the pictured flake powder, so I will have to be very careful with the next lot I pull so I don't mix powders. Can you post a closeup pic of the powder like I did?


Andy, I have sent some pics of the powder to your rogers email address

I only encounter this powder from one case and it isn't the norm by any means. I don't know if it all came in one or two boxes or more. When I pulled the bullets out of the belts I just threw them back into the crates they were shipped in without separating them. Most I have pulled are identical to the powder in your photo.
 
Quote Originally Posted by bearhunter View Post

Andy, the powder in some of my cartridges is identical to that in your pics. For the most part though, it is more like a short cut extruded powder. Weights and velocities are equal though as is volume in the case. Likely the same powder with a different shape??? Maybe Ganderite could shed some light on this.
Now that is interesting. I have only pulled about 10 lbs of powder and have not encountered anything but the pictured flake powder, so I will have to be very careful with the next lot I pull so I don't mix powders. Can you post a closeup pic of the powder like I did?


Andy, I have sent some pics of the powder to your rogers email address

I only encounter this powder from one case and it isn't the norm by any means. I don't know if it all came in one or two boxes or more. When I pulled the bullets out of the belts I just threw them back into the crates they were shipped in without separating them. Most I have pulled are identical to the powder in your photo.

Here it is!

8x63SwedishExtrudedPowder_zps6e3a8f61.jpg
 
Did that powder come from a different matchstick factory than the others?

I don't know, but this seems to be an area worthy of research (and publishing). Who made the two powders, the same or different factories? Same composition, but different shape? Burn rates? Same as used for 6.5X55? I think not, as the expansion ratios are significantly different and the 8X63 Swedish powder would not be optimum for bullets heavier than 120 grs in the 6.5X55.
 
My posts were contradictory. The powder that Andy's first pic showed is what I have found the most of. The pic Andy so graciously posted for me is in some of my cartridges. It weighs the same and fills up the case to a similar level. It may be the same powder as the semi flake type but in different form. When I purchased the ammo I bought one lot of 5000 which came in two containers filled with cardboard boxes containing what I thought was 200 rounds on belts. Andy mentions it was a hundred rounds. After receiving the first batch I ordered another batch. Good stuff. I received an offer for the belts which came to about half of what I paid for the ammo and I took it. I had no use for the belts or the cardboard boxes. They just took up a lot of space. I didn't bother trying to keep it all together, I just pulled the cartridges from the belts and threw them helter skelter back into the shipping/storage crates. I very seldom break this ammo down. I use it as is in the two rifles I have chambered for it. I have one that is scoped and thought it would be a great hunting round with 200grn Sierra GK SPBT bullets. I have a couple of hundred cases that I reload and prime with a couple of sleeves of Berdan primers I was lucky enough t come across. At first, I just pulled the bullets and weighed the powder so that I could make up loads with consistent weight. If I didn't have to slightly deform the necks to pull the original bullets, I wouldn't bother dumping all of the powder together to weigh them out. The powder in those cases is so close that it wouldn't make any difference that would matter for a hunting rifle.

That powder may be present in a lot of them but I just don't know. It all has come out of the one of the four crates but then again, I have only shot several hundred rounds and it has all come out of the same crate. There are three others and they all contain around 2500 rounds each. When I first started to pull those bullets the stick powder seemed to be the main type but that quickly changed as I got further into the box. Sort of a Forrest Gump situation with surplus ammo. Very much like the 303 BR used to be. I have bought it in different batches and found anything from chordite strands to extruded granules to ball type powders.

This stuff is almost identical in size to the Reloader powders. This would make sense because a lot of Reloader powders are/were made in Sweden. All I can tell you is that weight is identical in comparison to the flake type and so is volume to weight. It is a fairly fast powder, just like the flake type. I have used it in 6.5x55 and 30-06 with heavy bullets.

That 8x63 case is very good. Its capacities are almost identical to the 8mm Gibbs. I was going to use on a long range match rifle build but finding a match quality 8mm barrel proved difficult unless I wanted to bring one in from off shore. Life got in the way and the match rifle never materialized. One thing though any rifle chambered for it will recoil more than I care for. That is one reason why I haven't used as much as Andy.
 
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