90 grs. and the .223 Rem

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wapitiwhacker

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The .223 vs. .308 question has come up a number of times. The pros and cons are put forth, and it always seems to come down to 90 gr. bullets out of a .223 outperforming (on paper) the 155 gr offerings in .308.

mpwolf has touched on this in the current .223 vs. .308 thread, but I thought instead of hijacking that one this might deserve a thread of it's own. What kind of accuracy can you get with 90gr bullets out of a fast twist .223 barrel? Does anyone have real world experience with 90 gr bullets in a .223 Rem? If so what are your findings? Will they match the accuracy of the lighter offerings (say 69-82 grs.)?

Any information I have been able to dig up seems to indicate that the 90 gr. offerings of .224 cal bullets are hit and miss in the accuracy department (no pun intended). The highest BC in the world will do no good if the bullet is not inherently accurate in the first place.

I love the concept, but is anyone having great success using it??
 
Great bullets let you find great accuracy.

I have found the 90gr Bergers to be an easy bullet to shoot.

I think the main reason some have trouble tuning the 223 is because they are either dropping charges or weighing on scales with too much variation from charge to charge.

I load my 223 to UNDER 0.1gr error - at least to the error in my digi scale. Many scales vary by +/- 0.1gr, some as much as 0.3gr spread. That is like a 1/2 gr spread in a 308 - WAY too much.

There are some 223 fast twists and 90's being developed and shot here and in the US. not sure what is happening overseas.

The results are promising and the performance seems to be stabilizing.

I have found the 223 to be every bit as accurate as the 308. It just takes an accurate scale to make it work.

Jerry
 
Fast twist 223 rem

I built a 223 fast twist this year Barnard action, 30" Tru Flyte, Jewell trigger
Robertson stock. This gun will shoot 90gr Bergers very well .2" 5 shots at 100
my friend Liberty on sight fired 4 shots .340" at 300y with 90gr Bergers. I watched him shoot .520" 5 shots with tyhe 80gr VLD bullets his gun is a Rem 700 trued and built by Mic Mc fee 28" Kreiger, Jewell he also shot a 74 and 75 at 900 meters with lots of V,s.
My brothers gun the green Robertson thumbhole stock ,40x action, 28" Hart 7 twist, Jewell, shoots extreemly good he shot a 69-7v at 900m in lots of wind last Sunday on new 1/2moa target.
I have custom Rem 40x 222 rem benchrest guns and this 223 is just as acurate or better and is considerably better at 300y shooting the 80 & 90gr bullets the small 53gr just are to light in any cross wind.
Jerry made a good point about loading the 223 a top- grade electronic scale is a must as 1/10 gr makes 3/4moa in elevation at 1000 yards, I loaded shells for the upcoming ORA shoot next weekend its quite slow, my loads are all .02gr I tested last Wed pointing bullets in a Hoover Mepplate trimmer and bullet pointer.
group was a little tighter than non pointed, but gained ellevation was 8 "to 9" higher.
The hunter class target with blue Barnard was shot with 80gr Bergers at 2940fps I shot a x in sighter and 4 other targets. The fellows I shoot F class put the handle on my gun The Mouse Gun they always turn to me and say did you shoot,they don,t even hear it but it is sure nice to shoot NO recoil.
You won,t be disapointed building a fast twist 223 or you can buy a Savage with a 1/7 twist that shoot great with 90gr bullets to run with the .308 win
in F/TR Class

The tube gun on second bench is Barnard 6.5by47 lapua and it shoots extreemly well, the third gun is Barnard/Tru Flyte made up by Ian Robertson, its the gun that won the F class shoot a couple weeks ago in Winnipeg it a 284 win steered by Barry Price

P1060915.jpg
P1060900.jpg
 
belive me those little 223 shoot very well out to 900m.and you must take them seriously i lost a few times this year to them little mousers but i have a plan for them i am building a better mouse trap. lol Darin
 
mysticplayer said:
I load my 223 to UNDER 0.1gr error - at least to the error in my digi scale. Many scales vary by +/- 0.1gr, some as much as 0.3gr spread.
Jerry
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Unless your digital is accurate to .0x's of grains (such as the acculab and other laboratory scales) you are loading as close to the tolerance of your scale as you can. If your scale is +/- .1gr then you have the potential for a .3gr spread over each load. Hard to get UNDER .1gr with +/- .1gr scale.

For example.... a 35gr load with a +/- .1gr error can be 34.9-35.1

My beam scale AND Digital scale are both good to +/- .1gr as well and I would like to think that my loads are under .1gr in difference but I would have to have a far more accurate scale on hand to KNOW that that was the case.
 
Terry Perkins said:
manitou210 and bulldog284, see you on Friday. Good luck.
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Terry I am going to have to get you and Daren in Crown Royal Races every night to even get close to you two the way you both have been shooting!!
Daren whipped me at Quebec.
Even used long drop tube to get more powder in mouse gun to get out to 1000 a little quicker, might stay out of the 3s
Just around guys like you two + Norm, Bob R,leo and others makes a great weekend.
Another fellow coming shooting a mouse gun as well, in F/TR
manitou
 
CyaN1de said:
Unless your digital is accurate to .0x's of grains (such as the acculab and other laboratory scales) you are loading as close to the tolerance of your scale as you can. If your scale is +/- .1gr then you have the potential for a .3gr spread over each load. Hard to get UNDER .1gr with +/- .1gr scale.

For example.... a 35gr load with a +/- .1gr error can be 34.9-35.1

My beam scale AND Digital scale are both good to +/- .1gr as well and I would like to think that my loads are under .1gr in difference but I would have to have a far more accurate scale on hand to KNOW that that was the case.
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Exactly why I switched to the Jennings years back when I was mucking with pushing the 223 to a mile.

Small errors are critical in such a small case.

have fun at the F class match guys. Hope to hear some great results for the 223 shooters.

enjoy...

Jerry
 
manitou210 said:
You won,t be disapointed building a fast twist 223 or you can buy a Savage with a 1/7 twist that shoot great with 90gr bullets to run with the .308 win
in F/TR Class
Click to expand...


Thanks for the info, I am looking into buying a Savage 12 VLP in 1:7". Are there any other rifles you would suggest I look at before buying?

Thanks!
 
Haagen_Dazs said:
Thanks for the info, I am looking into buying a Savage 12 VLP in 1:7". Are there any other rifles you would suggest I look at before buying?

Thanks!
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Yes a 308. If you research this a bit more you will find that very experienced reloaders, loading on top of the line equipment are challenged to get the 90 Grain 223 to work as well as a 308.

The benefits of 223 over 308 is it is much cheaper to load for and has less recoil. However for a newbie getting a load to work for 308 at 900 Meters is relatively easy. A 90 grain 223 folks are experimenting with it. You can join the experiment as well. IMHO there is much to learn you should consider starting with a known decent load rifle combo, not an experiment.

If you do decide to pursue the 223 consider a 1-8 twist tikka. It can stabilize bullets up to 80 Grains. These bullets will have slightly lower ballistic coefficent then a 90 grain and but will be able to be pushed faster. On paper they give up a bit of ballistics to the 90 grain, but they have been in use for a while and there is a much wider base of knowledge to get them to work well at long range.
 
JBD said:
Yes a 308. If you research this a bit more you will find that very experienced reloaders, loading on top of the line equipment are challenged to get the 90 Grain 223 to work as well as a 308.

The benefits of 223 over 308 is it is much cheaper to load for and has less recoil. However for a newbie getting a load to work for 308 at 900 Meters is relatively easy. A 90 grain 223 folks are experimenting with it. You can join the experiment as well. IMHO there is much to learn you should consider starting with a known decent load rifle combo, not an experiment.

If you do decide to pursue the 223 consider a 1-8 twist tikka. It can stabilize bullets up to 80 Grains. These bullets will have slightly lower ballistic coefficent then a 90 grain and but will be able to be pushed faster. On paper they give up a bit of ballistics to the 90 grain, but they have been in use for a while and there is a much wider base of knowledge to get them to work well at long range.
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I'd still buy the 1-7" Savage. That twist will stabilize the 90's as well as the lighter stuff. If you have the skill and patience to get the 90's humming, you're WAYYYY ahead of what you can do with the 80's. If you can't get the 90's working as well as you want, then the 80's are still a solid option. No point in discarding the best ballistic option before evn trying it.
 
JBD said:
The benefits of 223 over 308 is it is much cheaper to load for and has less recoil. However for a newbie getting a load to work for 308 at 900 Meters is relatively easy.
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Dont get me wrong, I am not buying this rifle to make 900m shots day 1, I just would like to find a rifle that will not need a pricey barrel replacement when the time comes.

Im buying a .223 more for the extra trigger time and less for the precision shooting, even if it is my end state.
 
In the same boat

I have the same dilemma. I have a precision rifle course coming up and I currently have a Tikka Tactical that could shoot the 80 grain bullets or do I purchase a 308 to make it easier on me to find a good load.

Both options have pros and cons about them. I am leaning towards using the 308 to eliminate the little issues and concentrate and learning the shooting skill set first.

Greg
 
The Tikka will likely out shoot most any other factory rifle except maybe another Tikka. Next on my list would be a Savage.

80gr Amax or Berger over Varget, lit by a CCI450. I use Win brass. Others prefer Lapua.

Loading tech the same for either case. Get a quality scale which will benefit everything you load for.

Have at it.

Shooters are forgetting the speed of recovery that the 223 gives you. If you set it up properly, you can see your own impacts at longer distances. This is unlikely to happen with a 308.

The 223 is superbly accurate and no more to set up.

you have a great rifle, load up some ammo, go shoot it.

Jerry
 
What long-distance 223 shooters have to appreciate is that the meplat on a 223 bullet makes up a greater percentage of its frontal area than it does on a 308. The meplat on factory bullets is really quite inconsistent.

Yes, powder weight is important, as is any other variable, but in the case of the 223, the differences between meplats are what curse this caliber. Long distance 223 shooters cannot underestimate the importance of meplat uniforming - even prior to bullet pointing.

The meplat on a .224 cal 90 grain VLD is exaclty the same size as the meplat on a 7mm 180 grain VLD, the difference is that on the .224 bullet, it is a larger percentage of the total frontal area.

Having a high BC bullet is important for minimizing drift, but that BC is cancelled out by having a higher percentage of its frontal area subject to irregularity.

Clint Dahlstrom is a Canadian Hall of Fame TR shooter who lives in Arizona for a good portion of the year. He is also the author of innumerable atricles which have virtually become shooting treatises. He undertook a great deal of experimentation on these very bullets. His conclusions supprt that these bullets work best at long distance in a .223 Rem with a 6.5" twist and a long barrel.

I spoke with Clint abut this very issue over the summer and he acknowledges that opinions may vary, but he stands by his quantitative findings. I respect quantitive rather than qualitative research.
 
Bryan Litz did his work to calc the BC of this bullet in its orig form. So the BC is very high despite have a 'large' opening. Data looks very consistent indicating that the bullet itself has good consistency.

You have a book so you take a look at the data.

Trimming and pointing bullets meplats is getting lukewarm response. Some are seeing little benefit for their efforts. Some are getting worse as the process done improperly can cause more harm then good.

But if done properly, it might offer a solution to your concerns. Tools are readily available so for those that care, it is an off the shelf solution.

Looking at the tips, Berger produces some of the most consistent 'noses' in the industry

I look forward to further my tests when my next barrel arrives. So far, at shorter distances, the issue of bullet nose has not caused me any issues with vertical dispersion.

We will see what happens when distances go beyond 500m.

Although some show a preference to a faster twist, others consider too much twist a negative. Seems the consensus is moving towards the 7 twist.

This is all very new stuff and we are just getting a handle of what and how to tune this load. I am sure info will start to gel as more shooters put holes in paper.

Pity you weren't at the Farky. If you saw how well Bob P. was driving his new 223/90 VLD in that gale, you would be very interested in this direction.

And I think you will agree Bob P. is pretty knowledgeable both as a shooter and reloader.

Maybe ask him if he has experienced any issues at long range. He had a pretty big smile all weekend.

Jerry
 
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