90gr Berger VLD and the 223 - 500m Group 1 1/16"X 1/8" see post 357

Yes, the Superperformance stuff is the new gen powders I am very interested in.

I would expect it to be fully temp stable as Uncle Sam is driving this tech.

Apparentely, there are now temp stable ball powders - never tried any so can't say.

Whether we will get speed AND accuracy is what we need to figure out.

Jerry
 
So they claim... but Alliant also claimed that for both RL-15 and RL-17 and neither is.

Will believe it when I see data.
 
Re17 was never meant to be a high speed powder.

Reloaders decided to over pressure the stuff and the rare rig worked.

Alliant data for Re17 is no different that any other conventional powder.

The Hodgdon powder IS supposed to offer more speed. We shall see.
Jerry
 
Don't lose sight of the fact that even if none of these next-generation "super" powders pan out, the 90s fired from a .223 Rem will still be a fantastically high performance bullet.

If the .223/90s can be made to shoot accurately with conventional powders (e.g. Varget N150 Re15), it will be out-doing the very best .308/155 combinations that we have today.
 
Where I think shooters are running into trouble is with varying ambient temps throwing their tuning out of whack.

N550 and 150 have become very popular but I don't think they are very temp stable (????). It only takes an apparent change of a tenth or two grain to throw your loads out of whack. Large swings in ambient condition can easily do that with a non stable powder.

Vertical stringing at the longest relays tend to be the biggest complaint. My suspicion is that these long distances are shot late in the day with higher ambient temps. This makes the ammo out of tune by increasing the effective powder charge.

A slight increase would make the ammo 'clock' vertical which is the dispersion some are complaining about.

If we have a true temp stable powder (stable over a 20C range at least), then tuning out vertical at 300m should mean the load is stable all the way out to whatever. I know shooters who are hovering in the 1/4 min range at 300m for 5 rds groups using conventional powders.

What more accuracy do we need?

Varget, H4350, N150 and 550 are presently being used with success.

We are getting 2800+fps now with some pretty stiff loads. Near redline and if temp changes the tuning enough, over the top.

If these new gen powders can give us STABLE 2800+fps or 2900+fps with redline loads, that would be very exciting. There is precious little a 308 can do with the heavy bullets to match these ballistics.

Not without extremely high pressures and a whole lot of recoil. I just don't see 2800 to 2900fps with 185gr or heavier VLD's from a 308W as sane or safe.

Jerry
 
mysticplayer said:
I know shooters who are hovering in the 1/4 min range at 300m for 5 rds groups using conventional powders.

What more accuracy do we need?
Click to expand...

15-shot 300m group sizes of 0.5MOA would be good enough (and 0.4MOA pretty exciting) for an F/TR rifle. For a TR rifle one could get away with say 0.6-0.7 MOA.

At 900m, 15-shot group sizes of 0.9 MOA would be good enough (and 0.7-0.8 MOA pretty exciting) for F/TR; for TR one could certainly live with 1.0-1.2 MOA.
 
mysticplayer said:
Where I think shooters are running into trouble is with varying ambient temps throwing their tuning out of whack.

N550 and 150 have become very popular but I don't think they are very temp stable (????). It only takes an apparent change of a tenth or two grain to throw your loads out of whack. Large swings in ambient condition can easily do that with a non stable powder.
Click to expand...

That is exactly what happens. An change in temperature has the exact same affect on the tuning as changing the powder charge weight at a fixed temperature. The magnitude of that effect depends on how temperature stable the powders is. If you tune your load using the OCW method, it will be more tolerant of changes in temperature. But, you will still get pulled off of the node more quickly with a less temperature stable powder.

N550 has poor temperature stability, double based powders tend to. N150 is more in line with the traditional IMR series, which is better, but nowhere close to the Hodgdon Extreme powders or the new IMR8208.
 
I've always wanted to build up a .22-250 with a 7" twist barrel just for this bullet. In mean time, my current build using factory SPS .223 Tactical takeoff barrel with 9" twist is being chambered at Epps for the 75 gr. Amax .223 bullets. It's got the 0.473" diam bolt face in a short action SPS action for my beloved .22-250 cartridge....

Should be fun! My next custom barrel might be just for the 90's, and out of a .22-250, we might expect what... :rolleyes: around 3000 fps? :D

Cheers,
Barney
 
Giving thought to the 90 grainers with a 223, I can understand the optimism out there for up to about 600 yards. Beyond that, guys occasionally put up decent scores, but usually even the best of the 223/90s are somewhere in the middle of the pack. Even a 308 with 155s is marginal at 1000, but it's still better than a 223/90 rig.

At the back 800, 900 & 1000 you have to hold the verticals and thats real hard to do with 25 grains of powder as all the subtle nuances are at full effect. The bigger 308 cases are just more tolerant of these things. No matter how carefull you are with a 223, if you are just as carefull with a 308, you will be better off at long range.

In competition I think you just gotta weight out the close range advantages againts the long range disadvantages. Either that or you could reserve the 223/90 for 300 &500 or maybe even 600 on a calm day then switch to the 308as you move back. Although certain guys out there would consider that bad form.
 
Over the last few years, I have done a fair amount of testing with various 22cal heavy match bullets.

This concluded with discovering how 0.1gr can affect tuning in a 223 BUT when loads were weighed properly AND a temp stable powder was used, vertical can be tuned out.

How about dropping shots on a sub MOA target at 1mile? - actually 1730yds but that is close enough for me.

Any vertical and hitting anything at that distance would be a joke.

I am now doing lots of LR shooting using Varget and both 75 and 80 gr AMax and have no issue picking off MOAish sized rocks out to 1400yds.

SO the issue of tuning out vertical from a 223 is no longer a problem. you just need to use the right type of scale and keep loads to the same tenth. AND use a powder that is temp stable.

Viht is the powder I hear of most often with N550 showing up on a bunch of reports. Since this powder is temp sensitive, tuning is going to be near impossible especially if the typical reloading scales are used (error way too high).

The 223 is no better or worse to tune then a 308. With the right gear and protocols, it works just fine...

Now to get these rifles built, tested and send some lead downrange.

Will certainly post results.

Jerry
 
Hungry said:
I've always wanted to build up a .22-250 with a 7" twist barrel just for this bullet. In mean time, my current build using factory SPS .223 Tactical takeoff barrel with 9" twist is being chambered at Epps for the 75 gr. Amax .223 bullets. It's got the 0.473" diam bolt face in a short action SPS action for my beloved .22-250 cartridge....

Should be fun! My next custom barrel might be just for the 90's, and out of a .22-250, we might expect what... :rolleyes: around 3000 fps? :D

Cheers,
Barney
Click to expand...

In my quest to see how hard I could push these 90's for an F Open alternative, I put a 22/250 7 twist 28" long McGowen together. With H4831SC, I pushed them to over 3100fps with decent accuracy. Groups were around 1/3 min at 200yds.

Never lost a bullet and the holes were nice and round. I say, these bullets held up just fine.

Downside was at these pressures, case growth was high. Lots of sizing with every firing. Personally, if I went this route again, I would go 22.250improved. More case capacity allowing pressures to be eased up. much better case control.

For a speedy zapper, the ballistics on this combo are fantastic - very similar to a 7mm 180gr Bergers VLD at 2900fps.

Barrel life would be brief though....:p

Jerry
 
Hungry one thing to keep in mind with heavy-bullet .22-250 is that because of the extra 100-200fps over a .223, you can encounter bullet failure that .223 users never experience.

It is especially important not to use too quick of a twist rate. While Jerry reports above using a 1-7" twist successfully (i.e. no bullet blowups) I suspect that this was with a relatively new barrel (was it, Jerry?). After 500-700 rounds a .22-250 will not be shot out but its bore will be rougher than when it was brand new. This causes a bit more damage to the bullet's jacket, which can then blow up.

In the dim and distant past when the Sierra 80 (note: a bullet not known to have a fragile jacket) was a relatively new bullet, a regular poster here built a 1-8" twist .22-250 Ackley Improved, which was quite a laser cannon at ORA sniper matches. Later in the season it started to blow up bullets, which was spectacular to watch as a bystander but I doubt that he found it a lot of fun.

If I were you I would look into the bare minimum twist required to stabilize the 90 grain bullet of your choice, and go with that. I understand that a 1-7.7" twist will work at .223 velocities (so it certainly will work with a .22-250) and I'd also carefully look into whether or not a 1-8" would work (in which case I'd take that).
 
You can also minimize bullet failures by choosing 5R rifling over conventional rifling and a 0.219" dia. bore over a .218" dia one. Using Moly or hBN will also help.
 
Yes, the barrel was new so bore roughness is certainly something to be aware of.

I tested the 90's in a 8 twist Shilen out of a 223 going slow. I was trying to see where the min stability would be. Leaving 2600fps, it has no issues out to 1200yds which was the furthest the set up at that time would reach.

So a 22-250 imp might be just fine with an 8 twist too?

Jerry
 
Jerry that's a *really* useful data point. (Especially since with an 8" twist the Miller stability formula indicates right-on-the-edge stability, which can be interpreted as "too close to the limits to be trusted one way or the other).

Was it the Berger 90 BT or the Berger 90 VLDs that you were shooting?

I understand you to be saying that you were getting minute-of-rock accuracy at 1200 yards with mv=2600fps, right?

What were the atmospheric conditions (temperature, and elevation above sea level; optionally humidity)?

I don't recall if Shilen barrels are buttoned (in which case we can't assume that it is an 8.00" twist barrel that you have or if it might be a bit quicker or slower than nominal)
 
It was the 90gr VLD and yes, min of smallish rock at 1200yds. Didn't see any thing like vertical or tumbling which I was definitely expecting. At that distance, the bullet had to have gone subsonic.

I am in Summerland, BC and it was around 20C with clear conditions. Humidity would not have been too high. I think someone said I am around 3500ft up.

I would say that this Shilen 8 twist was OK but under different ambient conditions, it might not be. So I have gone with 7 twists in my FTR barrels. Why take a chance?

Shilen are buttoned rifled.

Jerry
 
mysticplayer said:
The 223 is no better or worse to tune then a 308. With the right gear and protocols, it works just fine...
Jerry
Click to expand...

not buyin it buddy
rocks are not 1/2 minute V-bulls at 800, 900 & 1000 yards.
The only evidence that matters is the score card.
One look at the ORA match 2010 tells us all we need to know about the 223/90 combo at long range.

Everyone has to have a dream though.
Maybe one day it will come true for you.
 
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You had me there for a minute Jerry I was rather excited about an 8 twsit and the 90's as there are several factory guns that have this as a standard twist.
Then you crushed me with your elevation being 3,500 i shoot near Ottawa and we are at sea level. Millar formula has me under 1.00 at sea level and over 1.00 or stable at your location..

As an aside did you measure the twist yourself or are you going from what the twist is listed on the barrel. JerryHM has been playing with a 7.7 to good affect. the difference between yours and his might simple be the numbers etched on the outside and not the true twist rate.

Trevor

P.S.

Anyone know what the atmospheric pressure (elevation) is at Raton.. if it is close to Mystic's level then it could be a sleeper come worlds...
 
I just went with the specs printed on the barrel. I have not measured the twist directly and my method would be pretty crude anyways.

7.7 vs 8 vs something close to the above seems to work just fine. 7 just makes sure there are no nasty surprises. Easy enough to send some down the pipe of a 8 twist whatever. I assume you are thinking Tikka. If you want a few bullets to test, let me know.

I would be very curious to see if these would make it to target in a Tikka.

Yes, there a few shooters working on this for Raton.

The interest in the 223/90 has grown as you can see from this post count. I am hearing from shooters from other countries asking for info and details. The results some are getting also mimic mine.

What we need is a powder that will get the job done. It is either very accurate but a bit slow or fast but vertical being a byproduct of the powder and temp changes. My adventures with Varget were very promising.

fclassguy, this combo is but a couple of seasons old and there is still lots to figure out. I have followed with great interest some of the articles and reports from shooters out east. Some have reported some really bad issues with vertical. This is likely powder/temp related. Maybe it is not????

I do most of my testing on paper and the results at 300m have been very positive. The LR stuff was merely proof of concept with the bullets making the trip just fine.

Now to get serious and put a FTR together and shoot it under match conditions.

How will I do? What will I find? We shall see next season.

But Rome wasn't built in a day.... The 308W has undergone 60years of development. I think the few that have gone into the 223 has proven very productive.

Jerry
 
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