90gr Berger VLD and the 223 - 500m Group 1 1/16"X 1/8" see post 357

No, the 223 is already disadvantaged vs the heavies in a 308. Using a bullet of even lower mass and BC, just isn't in the cards. The 80gr amax is a wonderful LR plinking bullet and no issue getting to a mile

Well, the verdict is in for me. The 223/90 just gets beat up way too much in the swirling mess that is Raton. When I got the conditions right, no problem with 10's and X's. Get it wrong, and you are bleeding huge points.

Very vulnerable to vertical caused for tailwind/headwind gusts. At Raton, to see an Open rig blow a 8 at 12 oclock after shooting water line was all too common. You just have to be sooooo much better at seeing and dealing with the conditions when using the 223.

As the match went on and my understanding of range grew, so did my scores. In the final 2 relays, I was definitely keeping up BUT got quite a few just outside the line 9's. There is no doubt a 308 would be have comfortably inside the 10.

Despite a train wreck on the 1st day (never ever ever ever change how you set up your shooting layout during a match), and a few lost bullets, the 3rd days scores took me into the lower 1/3 of Masters.

Considering the bucket loads of points lost, I am happy with my recovery. This was my first and hopefully last time seeing my name on the bottom of a group of shooters. Epic Trainwreck.

And Yes, I did loose a few JLK's during the match. That was so dissapointing as my scores would have been right in the middle/upper 1/3 of the scores. "IF" that had not happened, I might have met my goal of being in the upper 1/3 of my division.

There was a metallic buffalo at around 725yds in a nearby range that we would shoot when fouling. No problem plinking at craters 2 to 3" wide. The 223, when tuned, is wonderfully accurate. At moderate distances, plenty competitive.

hopefully, the bullet blow up problems will get resolved on a future run of bullets cause the JLK's are so very accurate.

For all that have followed my journey, thanks for your interest and support. Under the present rules, the 223/90 at 1000yds is not competitive.

But you never know where the future of this sport may go and what rules may evolve.

As a moderate range set up, and for disciplines like tactical/sniper matches, the 223/90 is going to be giving 308's a hard time.

Enjoy

Jerry
 
rnbra-shooter said:
- I found that the mirage in Raton was quite difficult to see, in fact I couldn't see it at all for the first day or two. Dunno if it's the lower air density (6600' ASL) or the (much!) lower humidity than at the ranges I am used to shooting at, but it was extremely subtle to see. Once you know what to look for though, it is there and it is pretty readable....
Click to expand...

No problem seeing the mirage with the Sightrons even in the cooler morning. When the temps soared, things got muddy but aiming on the line of choice was never an issue

rnbra-shooter said:
- - I found Raton to be a relatively "strong" range, conditions-wise. It's more likely you'll make a mistake under-reacting rather than over-reacting. If you see something, in the flags or in the mirage, put it on your sights and shoot... don't be shy about it, make a "full" or a "bold" correction, rather than a "partial" or "cautious" correction. If you see things change, put it on and go for it. Be bold.....
Click to expand...

We got lucky that the winds stayed under 20mph for most of the relays. In fact, most winds were peaking at only 12/14 mph. BUT wow, things can change in a heartbeat. 180deg changes in a few minutes were no problem. Seeing a 4 min R to L become a 2min L to R in a few seconds was common. A 2 min vertical gust, hammered way too many shooters.

rnbra-shooter said:
- I don't know if anyone is much good at making _absolute_ wind calls. You look at the indicators, make your best guess, and fire your first sighter. Even with the very best and most experienced shooters I know, it is not at all surprising to be out by a considerable amount. But within one or two sighters, if you've made a big "scale" error in reading the conditions, you can usually "re-calibrate" yourself to the conditions of the day and be pretty good from there on in reading and adjusting for wind changes in a relative sense.....
Click to expand...

I had the pleasure of shooting with two top US F TR shooters. The most important thing we learnt was to wait for the conditions desired. Things change so fast that trying to keep up was just a great way of loosing alot of points.

Wait, wait, wait, then 'gun away. That was the tech that seemed to work for the top shooters.

It was a huge learning experience with more and more info gelling as I reflect on the week.

Definitely a range that begs you to return to try and conquer it but given how many superb shooters still got hammered, I think the range holds the winning hand....

Jerry
 
Glad to hear from your experiences, I'll still be developing a 90gn load for my 223 when I can get back to BC. In the mean time, I'll be sure to watch this thread for more developments!


Also, a full value wind is sometimes better than a half value wind (imo) because both wind speed and direction change constantly. A wind direction change from 0 o'clock to 1 o'clock is a 50% change in windage adjustment value (0% to 50%). A wind direction change from 2 o'clock to 3 o'clock is only a 13% change in windage adjustment value (87% to 100%).


EDIT: Short answer: If the wind direciton is changing alot: full value wind is a good thing
If the wind speed is changing alot (gusting): headwind/tailwind is a good thing.


windcomponent.jpg



Side track mode: off.
 
The bullet is fantastic, but pushing it with a 223 is its downfall. george farqhuarson's vision for f class was to use the same 223 and 308 restrictions as TR.

Even at that, what percentage of international tr shooters use 223?



Posted from Canadiangunnutz.com App for Android
 
There would be a ton more 223's if the orig bullet weight is returned. Or as was discussed - 156gr/308 and 90/223.

When ICFRA removed the 156gr limit on the 308, it created another arms race. Now with some pushing 230gr monsters, the 223 simply cannot battle in the winds.

The more common 185/200gr set ups are so much better when the air gets bumpy.

I shot with a top shooter that was using the 155.5gr and it got bounced around too. An Amazing shooter, so much was likely masked by skill but there were "outs" for sure.

There were FTR shooters who share my concern that the ability for new shooters to enter FTR is greatly hampered by this arms race. FTR is now Open with a bipod.

Will there be limits or a return to the orig rules and intent? who knows.... but until that happens, the 223 is pretty much dead vs the 308/heavies when competing beyond 600yds/m.

For pure sling shooting (TR), if there was a 156/308 vs 90/223, I think the 223 would be well represented. I know of at least one top Canadian TR shooter that uses the 223/90 and is thrilled with its performance. Does he shoot it beyond 600m, don't know?

Jerry
 
When the original rules were developed was there such thing as the 90 VLD? It would seem to me that returning to a capped 308 bullet would immediately turn the tables in favour of the 223 given the ballistics of the 90VLDs. If the cap was 156/308 and 81/223 perhaps that would provide more of a level playing field.

Personally I would oppose a cap because I think it takes a lot of the ingenuity and experimentation out of it. I'm not aware of anyone using the REALLY heavy 308s (over 200) in major Canadian competitions (Easterns/Westerns/Nationals) yet, but I know first hand that at least 3 of the top 5 finishers at Nationals experimented with heavy bullets last year and went back to something lighter. My view is that given some time this issue will eventually sort itself out, and people will find that there are diminishing returns above a certain point.

I am a relatively new shooter and having the opportunity to try something new was part of the appeal for me. The proven recipes will always be there for those who choose to use them, but why would we not want to encourage folks to try and benefit from the newer technology, provided it is within the rules?

Just my 2 cents.
 
Last edited:
FTRR, you are correct but in the mean time, the experimenting still goes on and costs soar.... Pressures too.

you are right that the orig rules were 156/308, 82 or 81gr/223. Given the issues the 90's can have from manf and lots, a world with 82gr BT's would be a hoot.

But get the 90's to work and it does work well.

If you have seen the many posts, you know I am a tinkerer at heart and have mucked with pretty much everything to try for more performance. Shot in F Open for that reason.

Now FTR is taking on the same flavour and that IS against the orig intent of this Class. For those that want to play with tech, F OPen is there. For those that want to focus on shooting, the orig intent of FTR would serve us all well.

Bottom line is that the experimenting in F TR is to find a ballistic advantage over what the orig SAAMI 308 was ever capable of producing. Some shooters at the US Nationals were running 308's not far off 300WM performance.

Yes, some FTR rigs were beating F Open rigs in the winds.

Great ballistics but at what cost?

If F class is to continue to grow, we need a way into the sport that is stable, not that expensive, and accessible to all manner of shooter. With both classes getting increasingly high tech/high dollar/high recoil, the sport is going to hit a point of diminishing returns in the next few years.

Jerry
 
I can see the argument for a return to a pure form of F-TR, but without some form of classification system having new shooters compete against folks who have been shooting 155s for decades would be akin to feeding them to the lions.

If you are willing to put in the work doing load development a higher BC bullet can offset some of the wind reading skill that may take years to develop, and can help make you more competitive sooner. That to me is a key element in attracting new shooters.

By only keeping the caliber restriction I think we would still allow most shooters to get into the game at reasonable expense, and we can leave the mechanical rests and crazy barrel burning wildcats for the Open guys.

BTW, sorry if I'm derailing the thread.
 
FTRR, again, great points and why this debate is not going to get settled anytime soon.

As for barrel burning, feedback from overseas is showing some super fancy 308 loads cooking barrels as fast as Open rigs.

At some point, a true cap has to be placed to keep wallets and body parts safe.

Jerry
 
say I am under the impression that perhaps Berger will be making a 87 or 86 grain hybrid in the next year or so, I would thin they know the difficulty in tuning the 90 grainers and would be working towards a hybrid to take advantage of the really long range F-class FTR. wonder if a guy just tries the 90 grain for a while and hope or abandon the idea,

Jerry please do not scare off to many people as I just got my 2 guns built for the .223 long range and may have to sell them this decade,

thoughts on whether a new 87 grain bullet would work better than the 90

Jefferson
 
I'm fairly new to F-Class (F/TR) having shot my first match about 5 years ago and I disagree with an idea that a return to 'pure' would be a good idea.

Had there been bullet-weight restrictions when I considered having a go at F-Class I may never have got involved - let me explain: part of the attraction was that I could take my rifle and bullet load ( TRG with 175 SMK's ), show up and see how this game was played and wheter or not it was for me. If someone had told me I needed to keep under 156g I may well have thought "mmm, sounds a bit specialised and they probably will be all snobby about me showing up with a factory rifle anyway". An unreasonable thought sure but one that may well have crossed my mind.

Today when I play this game I shoot the 185 Hybrid out of a custom F/TR rig but haven't given up on the 155.5's and, who knows, I may even try out the 208's as part of the fun is playing around with stuff to see what works out. Just like golf - isn't part of the game trying out the latest driver to see if you can get an extra 10 yards ? Imagine how boring the game would be if we were all restricted to the clubs used in the 1970's.

Suggestions to make any part of the shooting sports more restrictive are, I feel, misguided and the efforts of respected shooters are better expended in making F/TR (and for that matter other shooting sports) more inclusive so that the sport(s) grow.
 
Jefferson said:
say I am under the impression that perhaps Berger will be making a 87 or 86 grain hybrid in the next year or so, I would thin they know the difficulty in tuning the 90 grainers and would be working towards a hybrid to take advantage of the really long range F-class FTR. wonder if a guy just tries the 90 grain for a while and hope or abandon the idea,

Jerry please do not scare off to many people as I just got my 2 guns built for the .223 long range and may have to sell them this decade,

thoughts on whether a new 87 grain bullet would work better than the 90

Jefferson
Click to expand...

As I am not a top wind reader, I fully accept that some "outs" were just driving error.

I expect things to drift one way and don't compensate enough, the bullet goes wide of target downwind. I am completely happy with that as with improved skill, this can be overcome.

What can't be overcome is the increased divergence due to gusts. Think small boat in the ocean. If the waves get big enough, no matter how good a captain, the vessle simply can't do what you need.

And that is what I experienced at both Nokomis and Raton. Two places with agressive winds, turbulence and gusts.

On a steady day, even if windy, driving the 223/90 is no worst then any 308 I have shot against. This is a very consistent and accurate combo.

But if the winds get bumpy with localised "potholes", you get punished worst.

I watched the targets next to me and when " WTF's" came through, the 308's moved in the same direction as I did. I just bled more points.

Can this be overcome, YES. If you are a superb wind reader and can get ahead of the conditions, fully competitive. But miss something and you will bleed more points.

The JLK 90 is actually a very simple bullet to get dialed in. The fact that thicker jackets need to be used, can be overcome. They are wonderfully accurate in steady air

So the question becomes where are you shooting and how far?

I have shot and won out to 500m and placed 2nd at 600m during the early days of 223 development. I can say, my rigs are working even better now.

At moderate distances, I can argue that the 223 can be a better option. Here the 80+ to 90gr (VLD or BT) make for a very nice combo.

No difference then the dominance the 6BR/Dashers have shown in Western F Open matches. Stuff shoots.

Go out to 900m/1000yds, add in a bunch of bumpy switchy twitchy air, you better have your "A+" game on.

Just to illustrate this mass/inertia more, when I shot the last year in F Open at the Farky, Sat winds were horrid. The top 3 places had 6.5's which were the largest cal going at that time.

Sunday, the air calmed down and the 6mm's ate up the V bull. I don't think there was a 6.5 in the top 3.

BUT the overall scores put the initial 3 6.5's onto the podium simply because the smaller cases had lost so many points, they couldn't catch up.

Sooooo....... I will continue to use the 223 for practise (wonderful for 1000yds as it will show your mistakes right now) and some shorter distance matches but I will have to start on a 308 if I want to stay competitive out to 1000yds.

Jerry
 
Tomochan said:
I'm fairly new to F-Class (F/TR) having shot my first match about 5 years ago and I disagree with an idea that a return to 'pure' would be a good idea.

Had there been bullet-weight restrictions when I considered having a go at F-Class I may never have got involved - let me explain: part of the attraction was that I could take my rifle and bullet load ( TRG with 175 SMK's ), show up and see how this game was played and wheter or not it was for me. If someone had told me I needed to keep under 156g I may well have thought "mmm, sounds a bit specialised and they probably will be all snobby about me showing up with a factory rifle anyway". An unreasonable thought sure but one that may well have crossed my mind.

Today when I play this game I shoot the 185 Hybrid out of a custom F/TR rig but haven't given up on the 155.5's and, who knows, I may even try out the 208's as part of the fun is playing around with stuff to see what works out. Just like golf - isn't part of the game trying out the latest driver to see if you can get an extra 10 yards ? Imagine how boring the game would be if we were all restricted to the clubs used in the 1970's.

Suggestions to make any part of the shooting sports more restrictive are, I feel, misguided and the efforts of respected shooters are better expended in making F/TR (and for that matter other shooting sports) more inclusive so that the sport(s) grow.
Click to expand...

And of course, this is the point of view of others who see an "open" class more inclusive then a restrictive one.

No right answer. Both sides have valid points.

Where I think this can be capped is wrt safety. Loading over 70,000psi is just plain dangerous. There are no shortage that are hot rodding at very real risk to them and shooters around them.

There is no way you can tell me a 308 pushing a 200gr bullet close to 2800fps is doing so with no pressure. SAAMI puts this at 2400fps (55,000psi in a 26" barrel according to hodgdon load manual)

So one proposal I made was to cap OAL or chronie the loads so that they fall within safe loading practise.

Other "restricted" sports have seen some very tragic results of this hot rodding. Guns blowing up and shooters getting hurt.

The point of diminishing returns will level out the FTR game IF some boundaries are placed. Right now, there aren't any and tech is letting some shooters move into very dangerous territory.

Jerry
 
In my opinion, the unlimited bullet weight in FTR has turned it into a more restricted form of F-Open (i.e. technology driven but within specific calibre restrictions). A bullet weight limitation would level the playing field and be a better test of markmanship which naturally includes wind-reading amongst other things. We are probably spending a disproportionate amount of time experimenting and developing loads for various bullet weights and not enough time actually shooting (and reading wind). Again, just my opinion.

And as Jerry points out, the experimenting could push the limits to dangerous levels.
 
Gerry don,t you be giving up on the 223,and be thinking the .308 is better. The 185gr Beregrs seem to be bullet of choice with top shooters in east
but do the numbers on your bullet calculator and they have nothing over the 223 90gr VLDs out to 1000y just a lot of recoil you will have to learn to manage just get out and shoot on those windy days and you will do good
manitou


Mystic Precision said:
As I am not a top wind reader, I fully accept that some "outs" were just driving error.

I expect things to drift one way and don't compensate enough, the bullet goes wide of target downwind. I am completely happy with that as with improved skill, this can be overcome.

What can't be overcome is the increased divergence due to gusts. Think small boat in the ocean. If the waves get big enough, no matter how good a captain, the vessle simply can't do what you need.

And that is what I experienced at both Nokomis and Raton. Two places with agressive winds, turbulence and gusts.

On a steady day, even if windy, driving the 223/90 is no worst then any 308 I have shot against. This is a very consistent and accurate combo.

But if the winds get bumpy with localised "potholes", you get punished worst.

I watched the targets next to me and when " WTF's" came through, the 308's moved in the same direction as I did. I just bled more points.

Can this be overcome, YES. If you are a superb wind reader and can get ahead of the conditions, fully competitive. But miss something and you will bleed more points.

The JLK 90 is actually a very simple bullet to get dialed in. The fact that thicker jackets need to be used, can be overcome. They are wonderfully accurate in steady air

So the question becomes where are you shooting and how far?

I have shot and won out to 500m and placed 2nd at 600m during the early days of 223 development. I can say, my rigs are working even better now.

At moderate distances, I can argue that the 223 can be a better option. Here the 80+ to 90gr (VLD or BT) make for a very nice combo.

No difference then the dominance the 6BR/Dashers have shown in Western F Open matches. Stuff shoots.

Go out to 900m/1000yds, add in a bunch of bumpy switchy twitchy air, you better have your "A+" game on.

Just to illustrate this mass/inertia more, when I shot the last year in F Open at the Farky, Sat winds were horrid. The top 3 places had 6.5's which were the largest cal going at that time.

Sunday, the air calmed down and the 6mm's ate up the V bull. I don't think there was a 6.5 in the top 3.

BUT the overall scores put the initial 3 6.5's onto the podium simply because the smaller cases had lost so many points, they couldn't catch up.

Sooooo....... I will continue to use the 223 for practise (wonderful for 1000yds as it will show your mistakes right now) and some shorter distance matches but I will have to start on a 308 if I want to stay competitive out to 1000yds.

Jerry
Click to expand...
 
Feel free to keep pounding your head into that brick wall Paul. If I had the resources, I think I'd go with the golf bag approach, and build a .223 for use at short and mid range, as well as long range during steady conditions. Then on days with bumpy air, and switchy, gusty conditions, out would come the .308 with 200/215's.

Having watched the .223 / 90 gr experiment thus far, I just can't help but be reminded of the old maxim- there's no replacement for displacement...
 
mpwolf said:
Feel free to keep pounding your head into that brick wall Paul. If I had the resources, I think I'd go with the golf bag approach, and build a .223 for use at short and mid range, as well as long range during steady conditions. Then on days with bumpy air, and switchy, gusty conditions, out would come the .308 with 200/215's.

Having watched the .223 / 90 gr experiment thus far, I just can't help but be reminded of the old maxim- there's no replacement for displacement...
Click to expand...

This is my position on this set up as well. If the rumor mill is correct, new fuels could be announced as early as SHOT 2013.... then more fun to follow.

Jerry
 
Gunsmoke said:
In my opinion, the unlimited bullet weight in FTR has turned it into a more restricted form of F-Open (i.e. technology driven but within specific calibre restrictions). A bullet weight limitation would level the playing field and be a better test of markmanship which naturally includes wind-reading amongst other things. We are probably spending a disproportionate amount of time experimenting and developing loads for various bullet weights and not enough time actually shooting (and reading wind). Again, just my opinion.

And as Jerry points out, the experimenting could push the limits to dangerous levels.
Click to expand...

Agreed.
 
For S&G's, I took my FTR and 223/90 out to 300m to see what it would do.



I think it works just fine. I did pull the 4th shot low cause I was curious if the group was forming high because of scope or me. Yep, the group is high and right. 1 click low, left would have centered the group nicer but I wasn't too concerned.

There is certainly no issue with the accuracy at shorter distances.

video has been sped up for your viewing pleasure.
Jerry
 
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