90gr Berger VLD and the 223 - 500m Group 1 1/16"X 1/8" see post 357

I am working with the Berger 215 gr. Hybrid as well for F-TR will be able to give you some fairly good comparison data a soon as I settle in with a load for this .223. That being said the 215 takes about 40-45% less windage @ 2500 than the 155.5 @ 3000...Marked increase in recoil over the lighter .308 loading.

Andy
 
223 & .308 at Western & Eastern F class Championships

Should be a good test for the 223 at Connaught this weekend against some of the top .308s in the east.
The hottest shooter with a 223 is La Bill shooting his Defiance Action, Tru-Flite 30"/7 twist put togeather by Ian Robertson.
He shot a 75 with 14 v bulls at 300 amd a 75 with 13 v bulls at 600 at a recent shoot at Kingston ON. also Liberty and his fine shooting 223 he eneded up loosing to the .308 at Connaughts Victoria day shoot by V bull count.
Anyone know if there will be 223s at The Western championships this weekend at Nokomis SK other tan Jerry ????
 
Quick update. having a great time in Nokomis and in case you didn't hear, a tornado roared through the area.

Thursday practise was very interesting as we had 8 to 25mph winds FULL VALUE. Now you see them, now you DONT.

We all got bumped around but when I finally hit paper and got some basic idea of how drastic you needed to hold, I hit target center from time to time. Vertical was minimal but windage, well, let's just say, #2 target frame is a great place to aim when shooting on #3.

Today was way calmer with really a 3 to 8mph range BUT it was twitchy and let offs were as much as 3 mins, then reverse. So lots of point were lost by all shooters.

With this being my first time in SK, the learning curve has been huge but I am getting a feel for it. Scored well enough to be tied for 5th in a cluster of shooters. X is the only separating thing.

More winds and grumpier weather is coming tomorrow so that will really spread out the field.

I was having a great time at 1000yds but a few things went wrong and I tossed a bunch of points in my last 3 shots. But I sure shot a bunch of 10's (we are using an NRA target) which made me very happy.

At 800 and 900yds, I did bleed points here and there trying to figure out what and how much to hold. Ended each relay with 10's and final shot, an X so that made me feel really good too.

The 90gr JLK's are letting me hold my own against a very talented pack and despite a huge learning curve for the range/distance/winds, the combo is letting me learn well enough from my misses to keep in the fight.

We will see as the winds pick up, if I can peddle fast enough to keep up.

Stay tuned.

Jerry

PS another very talented shooter/wind reader is using a Berger 80.5gr and in the top 3 or 4 shooters. Talent and skill in abundance... Awesome to watch.
 
11-12 minutes of wind for lots of folks at Connaught tonight in tricky conditions with the same predicted for Saturday. We were also treated to a preview of Sunday's fireworks in the nation's capital courtesy of some exploding 90 JLKs!

Should be an interesting weekend for both east and west. Good luck to eveybody at Nokomis!
 
Not sure what caused it, maybe spinning them too fast (6.5 twist).

It was witnessed by an entire group of shooters, and I believe the shooter in question has already chimed in on the JLK failure thread that somebody had started.
 
Nothing is perfect in the world but these JLK's do work very very well.

Just finished the Westerns in Nokomis SK. My first experience in BIG AIR country. Awesome stuff and sure humbling. Extremely well run match too.

What I now know is that the mass side of the question has been proven. There is no replacement for displacement.

We had very bumpy air with plenty of vertical likely caused by thermals popping off the range in the heat.

When a 7mm 180gr from a boomer goes from 10's and X ring to high 7, followed by a WTF????, that is vertical.

There were verticals and the offsetting downdrafts, let offs and gusts that were 1 to 4 MOA. NO warning, just BAM - bye bye points. How about making what you feel is a great call and expect to see an X, at worse 10 BUT get rewarded with a 6 due EAST?

That is the furthest edge of a very large target.

The experienced shooters kept 1 eye on as many targets as they could. There was a lot of bleeding all over the range.

It took a bit to get used to how much FULL value air really meant. I have never moved around a target so much AND felt good doing it (well, homestead was kind of the same but winds were way higher for the same movements).

What I now know is that under these conditions out to 1000yds, the 90gr JLK's are accurate. They will hold vertical in the 10ring (we shot NRA target) even with strong side winds BUT you had to account for lateral lift and drop depending on which way the wind blew.

After a while, you can learn this and hitting the 10 ring is doable even in strong winds.

What hurt me was when these "bumps" came through. Everyone would get a jolt. The 308, and OPen boomers would get pushed a high 10, and I would go 9. They might even see a 9, but I would go further.

At one point, I got stuck in both up and downdrafts for several shots. All 9's high and low back and forth (I held center through this mess) but I got every windage call. had I been able to see the vertical and compensate, I would have hit all 10's and X's and cleaned the target

Why didn't I compensate? Couldn't tell what was causing the push - mirage, flags, all similar but there it was. I learned from another relay, chasing this usually lead to an even bigger trainwreck when you held way off only to see the condition dissappear making the problem even worse.

Instead, I got hammered for several points. When it left, again, nothing I could tell. I drilled 10's to the end of the relay. .

I decided after earlier major FUBAR's to not chase what I couldn't quantify. For me, guessing lead to more points lost in the long run.

Others I talked to saw wonky vertical but mostly it just bounced them in the 10 ring with the occasional 9

I am not saying the combo is bad. What I can say is the combo is unforgiving. Know the air, then this is easy to drive precisely and with no recoil, there is little to no self induced vertical. Despite all these looses, I was able to keep in the top 3rd. Had I not been punished with as many points lost to vertical, I could have been in the top 5 (but that as we know is another story of coulda, woulda, shoulda).

Shoot in bumpy air with no/little visual cues and you will bleed more points then another making the same mistake pushing a heavier bullet.

For moderate range, I know this can be competitive and will keep using it for matches in BC which go out to 600m

For those out to 1000yds in areas of high lift conditions, I will begin developing a 308 and some interesting stock features.

Stay tuned for another saga....

Jerry
 
Hey Jerry part of the problem there is that you didn't let your bullets climatize after the long drive from BC to SK, I bet they were tired from the trip east and confused in there trip to the target wobbling around looking for mountains, way to scare the tree o'ate crowd though, congrats
 
90 VLDs or Heavy 308s

You made some great points Jerry, and I think the winds we saw at Connaught this weekend bear out many of your conclusions. What I took away from this weekend was that the heavy 308 bullet I shoot is more forgiving in tricky conditions whereas the 223s have the potential to be more accurate in calm, or even steady conditions.

For those who are interested (and I post this only because it was part of the bet, and I told Manitou I would) a few of us were "socializing" after dinner last night, discussing the merits of our respective calibers and decided we should settle things once and for all by running a side team match on Sunday, with the 308s vs. the 223s for the Sunday aggregate.

I'm happy to report that the heavy 308s carried the day, with one team coming out a full 50 pts ahead of "Team Mouse Gun". Sorry Paul :p
 
yodave, it's like seeing the ocean for the first time. Kinda of big, flat and impressive.

Then a storm rolls in ....

FTR, as we know, the F class game is a game of attrition. The one who makes the least mistakes wins.

As long as you can drive it, the 223/90 is every bit as good as any 308. When you need some help because the air is not your friend, bigger is better.

It will take a few months to get things rolling but while soaking in a mineral springs pool (yeah, roughing it), I started planning how this stock will work. AND how I hope to keep the recoil from being a bother.

Must say SK Steak may just be better then AB's..... But then I might have to go to Homestead and compare.

R&D - It's a living... :)

Jerry

PS one very talented wind reader shot a 80.5/223 combo to a 5th place overall. Do the math on that one. Gear doesn't win a match... but it sure can help.

I was 8th
 
Well Jerry as you know people come out here to pay big bucks to watch the storms come in and kick up the ocean, but thats the force of mother nature you can sit back and admire, wind through a empty field is as invisable as most of the supposed shooters that post in these forums.
I am making sawdust again in the coming weeks, so if your thinking laminate through your ideas at me, I am toying with the idea of molding the front half of my savage f class factory stock to the rear half of my sharp shooter stock, the recoil of the 30 caliber has been tamed before and renamed the 6.5, also food for thought.......think WSM......
 
yodave, thanks for the offer. I am going 308 simple because it lets me stay in FTR.

With the MPOD and new opportunities to experiment, seems like a good place to R&D.

F Open and the 6.5 has already been done very successfully. The 7's and 30's are now the "better" option. I am also looking at the 6 Dasher/XC/bigger then a 6BR case but we end up at the same argument.

All wonderfully accurate BUT bumpy air and you get tossed around more. 105gr vs 215gr.

We had a team match for S&G's (at least we shot for S&G's). I was wind coaching a 300RSAUM/215gr boomer. Variance in the bumpy air was a MASSIVE 1/2 of the X ring.... as in 1/4 min at 1000yds.

All I had to do was walk him out for windage and a squeak low hold and we just drilled a waterline ending with a dead center X. Windage was a 8 oclock mid 9 ring hold.

That same shooter scored for me in similar air. Quickly rocketed out from the center (windage zero at the start was good), through 10 ring, mid 9, outside 9, 8oclock 9, 7oclock 9, 6oclock 9 where we shaded a few shots to hold the 10 center.

Then the conditions let up and we ended with a "perfect" center hold 9 on the final shot. Lucky we didn't get an 8 for our efforts.

You can't peddle fast enough some times......

Jerry
 
FTRRookie said:
You made some great points Jerry, and I think the winds we saw at Connaught this weekend bear out many of your conclusions. What I took away from this weekend was that the heavy 308 bullet I shoot is more forgiving in tricky conditions whereas the 223s have the potential to be more accurate in calm, or even steady conditions.

For those who are interested (and I post this only because it was part of the bet, and I told Manitou I would) a few of us were "socializing" after dinner last night, discussing the merits of our respective calibers and decided we should settle things once and for all by running a side team match on Sunday, with the 308s vs. the 223s for the Sunday aggregate.

I'm happy to report that the heavy 308s carried the day, with one team coming out a full 50 pts ahead of "Team Mouse Gun". Sorry Paul :p
Click to expand...

FTR Rookie
You shot very very well in some very big changes in wind all weekend.
As well your members of the .308 team in the cash shoot on Sunday.
I feel bad for the other shooters on Team Mouse Gun (223) Liberty & La Bill
for letting them down, still trying to find out what was happing with the 90gr JLKs, had 6 no hits on weekend and 3 of them coming in last relay on Sunday.
On second 0 I asked R/O if they would check for a hit and marker came up in the 4 right beside bull, did markers miss the other ones ???? 223 leaves a small hole. or where the bullets breaking up like Jim had in practice on Friday.
Only differance in his rifle and mine is I use a 1/7 twist his is a 1/6.5 twist.
I have shot over 60 rounds testing with the 90gr JLK and had no problems.
I sure hate to have to go back to Bergers it takes so much time to sort bullets, as some have over 20k differances on base to ogive, where the JLKs are all the same. I switched to pointed 90gr VLD Bergers for last 5 shots on Sunday afternoon had to come up just over 1/2 moa.but all hit target.
Maybe we can do the same bet for the Nationals & Kingston this fall maybe Quebec as well
manitou
 
Thanks Paul; I was really happy with how Sunday went for me. Saturday, not so much. I can't speak for the other 308 shooters but it would only be fair to give you guys a chance to win your money back at Nationals!

I'd be curious what Jim's measurements and tests reveal, since if I understand correctly your JLKs are from the same lot. If some of your shots didn't make it to the target that would certainly explain some, if not all of those no hits. Maybe you can confirm with Jerry whether they are from the same lot that he has been running trouble free?
 
Who did you get your JLK's from and when?

Just PM or email.

7 twist is all you need and my Shilens seem to thrive on them. a bit more fine tuning for the increased heat and hopefully take them to Raton in Sept. Too late for anything else and the air may be different?

with Flat air, they do shoot well. Just up to me to figure how much sideways to give them.

If you want to try some other JLK's, I can help. Not had any issues with both my lots.

Jerry
 
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