90gr Berger VLD and the 223 - 500m Group 1 1/16"X 1/8" see post 357

Jerry, any reports on the velocity your guy was getting out of his Savage? h4895 seems kinda fast for the application. Rl15 sounds good, and I'm even thinking about Rl17.
 
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mysticplayer said:
One thing I would expect to start seeing in US High Power/Service Rifle shooting is more shooters using these bullets in their AR's during the slow fire stages where they can single feed.

A 7 twist is pretty standard in many AR's so using this bullet would pose no issues. At the powder levels above, there would be no stress on the moving bits either.

We could start to see scores rocket up in this form of shooting.

Jerry
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Do they run enough barrel in their ARs to make the 90s work? I'm not familiar enough with their game to know myself. Seems to me an AR with enough barrel to get the 90s going as fast as they need to be might pose strange gas system issues. Mind you, they've got tame 'smiths to fix and repair as needed and an unlimited supply of parts so perhaps it's not something that would pose them a problem. Kinda the same thing as running a nitro engine in your funny car - great if you're a big-name team, but ludicrous for a shade-tree guy.
 
mpwolf said:
h4895 seems kinda fast for the application.
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Jerry Tierney's data indicates the relative differences in overall lengths for some different bullets:

Bullet OAL to touch the lands:
Sierra 80 grains = 2.557”
Berger 80 VLDS = 2.503”
Berger 82 BTs = 2.515”– New Lot = 2.519”
JLK 80 VLDS = 2.540”
Berger 90 VLD = 2.624
Berger 90 BTs = 2.579”
Nosler 80 BTs = 2.536”
JLK 90 VLDS = 2.607”
Hornady 80 Amax = 2.564”
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Unfortunately Jerry T's data on that page only covered the B90VLD and B90BT, not the S90, and he also only used N550 for the 90s.

Hodgdon has some online loading data for the 90 grain Sierra in .223 that seems weird. They don't indicate barrel length but do they indicate a C.O.A.L. and pressures (I'm only showing the max loads):

Code: 
Bullet Weight (Gr.)  	Powder  	C.O.L.  	Grs.  	Vel. (ft/s)  	Pressure  	    	  

90 GR. SIE HPBT   	H414         	2.380"   	24.0   	2482   	52,100 PSI   	    	  
90 GR. SIE HPBT  	Varget  	2.380"  	22.3C  	2447  	52,100 PSI  	  	 
90 GR. SIE HPBT  	IMR 4320  	2.380"  	22.5C  	2476  	53,800 PSI  	  	 
90 GR. SIE HPBT  	BL-C(2)  	2.380"  	22.5  	2491  	52,300 PSI  	  	 
90 GR. SIE HPBT  	IMR 4895  	2.380"  	22.5C  	2527  	53,000 PSI  	  	 
90 GR. SIE HPBT  	H4895        	2.380"  	21.5  	2481  	53,500 PSI

2.380" COAL on a Sierra 90 would be very roughly similar to 2.480" COAL on the Berger 90 VLD (SWAGing this from the bullet drawings in Litz's book, pgs 338 and 345). So the Hodgdon data is for COALs about 0.144" shorter than land contact in Tierney's chamber.

Still, the Hodgdon data is puzzling:

21.5 H4895 gives 2841fps/53,500 PSI, but 22.5C IMR4895 gives 2527fps/53,000 psi (I would think that the charge weights would be closer)

22.3C Varget gives 2447fps/52,100 PSI - I would have expected the Varget to max out at least 0.5 grain higher than the 4895s, but it doesn't.

Handloaders working up a max load are likely to be at much higher pressures than the low 50s before they think they notice pressure signs, given the .223's proportionately stronger case (because it's a small primer, and a small case head). So whether handloaders know it or not, they're probably easily hitting 60,000-65,000 PSI in their "max but OK" loads (which explains how they get 2700+ fps; only a small bit of the gain is due to a 28" vs. 20" barrel, the rest is pure old fashioned PSIs)
 
mpwolf, sorry, no velocity data. That is why I offered a suggestion only.

From the Hodgdon data, my guess looks to have been high. But we do know it was a 26" barrel. So a 7 twist with a speed around 2500fps is stable. That is going to open alot of opportunities.

There is no doubt that the velocities that match shooters are reaching are raising PSI's pure and simple.

You can't get a case using 2/3 the powder run FASTER with the same bullet and not be pushing things hard.

The 'standard' Palma loads that push 155's to 3000fps is definitely above SAAMI spec but not likely in proof pressure range so equipment and brass has worked just fine.

I don't feel I am at risk when shooting at magnum pressures given I am using smaller bolt heads and the actions/barrels are stressed for much bigger kabooms.

It is when alot of tweaks are done to mask magnum pressure signs allowing shooters to go into proof pressure ranges, that things can get a bit dicey.

BUM, Service rifle AR's in the US can run pipes out to 24" so they have plenty to work with.

Big bonus is the 7.62 is really held back in this discipline and cannot dream of achieving what palma and F class shooters do so the 223 has a substantial ballistics edge even if run slow.

SAAMI specs for the 223 is 75gr 2950fps, 80gr 2800ish fps, 90gr in the 2500's fps

The 308 155's are at 2850 with many only getting high 2700's in their gas guns. Increase the weight, and their velocities plummet. Compare the BC's and that the AR is so much easier to make accurate and you can see why AR's dominate this sport.

As for abusing the rifle, easily resolved. All that is needed is to adjust the gas tube size and length to get the force on the bolt the same. This is one place where direct gas impingement is a great idea.

You could also just fit an adjustable gas valve and tune to keep moving parts happy, happy.

Jerry
 
Trial by fire: 22 BR with a 90gr Berger, 7 twist Krieger did very well at the Kamloops Farky in some very tricky winds. Rifle and shooter took 2nds on Saturday agg. Muzzle velocity is 2900fps.

Lots of excellent discussions on this bullet for a variety of LR disciplines. There is mounting interest. We just need to find a working formula and where, if any, the pitfalls are.

Seems like twist is the one that needs to get nailed down especially if it picky vs ambient conditions/altitude and velocity.

So far, I have received info that the 7 twist is doing just fine at shorter distances which will hopefully translate to longer distances. It should as 300m is plenty far to see how a bullet works. We were hoping to push out to 1000+yds but never got a chance.

I will add some 8 twist info after the truck unloads my Bergers :)

I had a wonderful conversation on the twist issues at the Farky and we are going to increase the data base of shooters as quickly as guns can get built and start burning powder.

Powder is where most of us feel is the weak link. We have many choices but nothing seems to be working as surely as Varget in a 308/155 type set up. But then we are still dealing with a very small data base. New powders are on the horizon which will help.

Will post more info as I get out to the range.

Jerry
 
What about something a little slower burning like N550, Re15 or Re17(if its available)?

I believe in the other post where German Salazar tried the 90's, he used N550 if I'm not mistaken and he got good velocity and was using the .223 case, not .22BR. I would love to see good results with the standard .223 to keep it in F-restricted, that is where it would do the most damage IMO. Anyway, hope you get some good data Mystic.
 
Absolutely correct. A 223 application is really what we are aiming for. The 22BR confirms that the 7 twist WILL work. The 2900fps is on the slow side for this combo and not much faster then what we want to get from a long barrel 223 so the data is very useful. Besides, the rifle is built and very accurate.

Hopefully, some bullets can be pushed out to 1000+yds to ensure there are no obvious problems when this bullet slows down. If it can stay min of small rock accurate with no obvious vertical problems, then further testing on paper makes sense.

Just got some data crunched from projected data and the 8 twist is definitely borderline at sea level. A 7 twist here would be a no brainer.

However, with increasing altitude and/or lowering air density, an 8 twist may not be all that bad.

Jerry
 
Very interesting thread fellas. Im brand new to the handloading game but look forward to where this is headed. Im very excited to see the data related to the 22-250 and a 90gr bullet.Thanks to all who posted.
 
Loaded up some 90gr VLD's for my Shilen 223 8 twist. Picked a couple of random SWAG Varget loads using my 80gr loads as a reference. OAL to fit in the mag so off the lands.

At 100yds, one of the loads put the 2 shots fired into 1/4". Was only shooting 2rds per level as I was not expecting them to even stabilize let alone shoot near touching groups. Pressure signs were no problem and the load could be in the 2600/2700fps range out of a 22" barrel.

According to the weather channel, temp is 10C, Humidity 50%, pressure 100.63. It was cool, gusty with a few sprinkles so the numbers sound 'right'. I don't have a Kestrel to take ambient conditions.

Will take this load and shoot to 1000yds and beyond just to see if it will be min of small rock accurate. I have a spot where there is a target the size of a 2L pop bottle (GOHPER) that we plink at. Easy to judge relative accuracy and vertical.

If it doesn't do funcky things at this slow speeds, it will be even better in a super sized Fclass/Palma rig. Again, without a chrony velocity, I am SWAG'ing that my combo is going to be transonic or very close at those ranges. Great way to see if things go screwy.

These bullets sure look funny sticking out of the case. At this OAL, the taper in the bullet is all that is sticking out of the case. A good candidate for a LONG throat.

Jerry
 
I did get some velocity data but did not shoot enough to draw any conclusions about the accuracy of the loads themselves. (I only shot a single 3 shot group of each load). All loads were shot in a Savage 12 LRPV, 26" pipe with a 1 in 7 twist. Once reloaded (twice fired) Lapua cases were used with CCI BR4 primers, all seating was 20 thou off the lands. I don't even check COL, just seat the bullets to 20 thou jump and measure seating depth with a Sinclair "hex nut" comparitor. As it is a single shot, I don't need to worry about mag seating. Here's what I found;

90 VLD - RL-15 - 22.0 Gr Avg Vel 2470 fps, ES 10.19, SD 5.29
90 VLD - RL-15 - 22.2 Gr Avg vel 2502 fps, ES 6.51, SD 3.00
90 VLD - RL-15 - 22.4 Gr Avg Vel 2565 fps, did not get ES or SD for this load

There were no pressure signs with the 22.4 Gr load in terms of primer malformation, extractor marks, sticky bolt, etc, so I think I'm going to try and step it up a bit.

I'm also going to try some N-550. There's an interesting report here: www dot dcra.ca/Marksman/Winter Spring 2008 Edition.pdf.

Has anyone tried either N-550 or Reloader 17 with the Berger 90 VLD in a .223 and care to share findings?? BTW, Alliant tech support told me they recommend against using Reloader 17 for any .223 application.
 
That velocity is low to what we are ultimately looking for up to 1000 since it will be subsonic by then, at that MV. When German Salazar did his tests with the Berger 90VLD he was using 25-25.5 grn of N550 but I would start around 23.5-24 and work up.

Did they give reasoning against Re17?
 
The conversation with Alliant was was via email, they said the burn rate is too slow and there would be case capacity issues. I'm only assuming they were talking about staying within SAMMI specs or seating to mag depth when they said this...

I was going to start with N-550 at 22.8, evidence seems to support going higher...

Hope to try some more later this week.....
 
I'm also interested in Alliant's reason for recommending against Rx17 in 223...?

FWIW, firing a Berger 90 VLD @ 2450fps in std conditions, will give a 1000 yard velocity of 1145 fps (just barely supersonic), and a wind drift of 100". In a 1-7" twist barrel, this gives a stability factor (Miller) of 1.27 (i.e.most likely stable).

So 2450fps looks to be adequate (meets minimum threshold for Palma shooting), anything better than that will be pure gravy. Since indications are that 2700-2800fps is achievable with optimized loads of N550 in 30" barrels, there is a lot of promise here (2750fps -> 1349fps and 82" drift @ 1000 yards)

I will repeat that the big question mark over all of this, is whether or not the bullets deliver good accuracy at 1000 yards (and note that most have reported that they *don't*, and only one has reported that they *do*). What needs to be confirmed ASAP, ideally by a number of independent testers, is that these bullets reliably deliver 10+ shot groups that are sub-1.5MOA (for TR) or sub-1.0MOA (for F-Class) at 900m.
 
So, to really be safe and stay supersonic at longer distance, ideally I think you would want to stay at 2600 or above and then go as fast as you can without getting vertical dispersion correct? Does anyone know is Berger has information on these bullets going wonky at 1000? It seems like something they may want to address if they aren't already.
 
These bullets need to go faster than that. They shine in a 22BR where they get pushed fast enough, but I think the ballistic coefficient advantage is lost when it flies that slow (need to plot that one out).

I am surprised they would stabilize going that slow with only a 7" twist. Clint Dhalstom (et al) have proven you really need a 6.5" twist and a bit more velocity.
 
well obviously you will want to try and get the most velocity you can out this and still be in the safe zone pressure wise with not too much vertical dispersion. I can't see why you would need a 6.5" twist seeing as how mystic had decent success at 100 yards with his 8" and according to the formulas a 7 will do just fine, especially if it is 26-2700+. Mind you 2900 would be better but later experiments will answer all of this, no more what everyone thinks will or won't work. I hope it works fantastically so I don't have to invest in another rifle :) We all know how that works out........
 
I'm thrilled someone is trying this out.

I ran the data through Bryan Litz's ballistics program and what he looks for is a "Stability Factor" above 1.4 This is not a make-or-break number however.

Inputting the speeds you quote, the dimensions of the bullets and the G7 BC of the bullets for their speed, the stability factor hovers around 1.28

You would need velocities above 3200 fps to achieve a stability factor above 1.4 - or a tighter twist.

This seems to corroborate what many have concluded through early experimentation. Optimal stability is not mathematically achievable with a 1:7 twist and 90 grain VLD's at .223 Remington velocities. The 90 boat tails are closer though.
 
Budweiser360 said:
Good stuff Mystic, can't wait for the results. How much powder did you end up using?
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The load that shot the best (only two loads tried) was 23.4gr of Varget, CCI 450 primer, in Win cases. Almost the same load I use with 80gr Amax/Bergers which is very interesting given the increased weight and bearing surface length.

Will chronie later when I go out to 1000yds.

Nice round holes with no obvious yaw so they seem to be doing ok in this 8 twist barrel. Hope to get out and see how they handle slowing down.

I too see little point in Re17 as it is slower then H4350 and faster the H4831SC.

This is a bullet that needs a lengthened throat so that you can get approx 26gr of some powder into the case. I am going to try H4350 which should fill the case nicely.

I have used H4350 in the past and it shot really well with the 80's but was too slow speed wise. Maybe with the 90's, it could be just right especially if the barrel is long. N550 is a bit faster then H4350 so we are in the right burn range.

However, if Varget keeps this level of accuracy, why change?

I am very surprised at the results this morning. I was expecting to see rectangular bullet holes but then reality doesn't always agree with the models.

Jerry
 
According to my software program you could be running Varget up to about 24.4 grains before you approach the high pressure levels at 64,000 psi. It might be an idea to run a pressure trial then accuracy OCW test. Also, I have been thinking of trying H4350 the same as your thoughts. I tried H4350 with 80 grain bullets and while the accuracy was good, Varget was better at higher velocity so I dropped the idea. My rifle has a longer throat so I will try H4350 on Friday. Steve
 
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