- Location
- West Quebec
I'd like two one in good shape to fire and a minty to look at and pass on to my heirs..
A Canadian collector trend?
- Thread starter flying pig
- Start date
Coyote Ugly
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Bearhunter,
The same people buying those reparked Garands would probably pay $5000 (or maybe even more) for a reblued 1911 or reparked 1911A1 because they don't know any better! When it looks Pretty and is Shiney, that's all that matters in the eyeball of the beholder!
The same people buying those reparked Garands would probably pay $5000 (or maybe even more) for a reblued 1911 or reparked 1911A1 because they don't know any better! When it looks Pretty and is Shiney, that's all that matters in the eyeball of the beholder!
- Location
- Southern Vancouver Island
Quite true....for now. The ones they have are definitely showing their age and are due for replacement soon, I trust.
I was gonna spruce up my K31 Swiss, but decided to leave the stock alone to preserve it's character. The beasty shoots great and the metal is primo, so I'll just maintain 'er and work up suitable handloads to get good accuracy without wearing out the bore.
All of mine, but 2, are beat-up, or restored.
The 2 in perfect condition are a JRA Garand and 1903 A4 clone that I bought the same month I got my PAL...cause they looked cool and I knew nothing about milsurp collecting or pricing. Now that I know more, I think that unfired 1903A4 is gonna see the EE soon, cause it will sell quick, for what I paid, and I can use the cash to fund some stuff I'm more into now....beat up milsurps. I'll keep the Garand cause I can shoot the heck out of it and have fun without worrying about affecting it's collectability.
The 2 in perfect condition are a JRA Garand and 1903 A4 clone that I bought the same month I got my PAL...cause they looked cool and I knew nothing about milsurp collecting or pricing. Now that I know more, I think that unfired 1903A4 is gonna see the EE soon, cause it will sell quick, for what I paid, and I can use the cash to fund some stuff I'm more into now....beat up milsurps. I'll keep the Garand cause I can shoot the heck out of it and have fun without worrying about affecting it's collectability.
- Location
- The Badlands
That is the problem , some like to assign a history to a particular firearm because the story sounds good and it is wishfull thinking.....but unless someones grandfather or great grandfather brought the gun back from the battlefields of Europe personally , it is very difficult , if not impossiable, to verify the actual wartime history of that exact gun.......all those dents and bangs really mean nothing other than the gun was roughly used by someone for whatever purpose.....
Bearhunter,
The same people buying those reparked Garands would probably pay $5000 (or maybe even more) for a reblued 1911 or reparked 1911A1 because they don't know any better! When it looks Pretty and is Shiney, that's all that matters in the eyeball of the beholder!
And there my friend is the conundrum.
Coyote Ugly
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Which really translates to a lack of experience and/or a sucker is born every minute in reference to the Pimpshined Factor of a severely overpriced Humped Firearm.
- Location
- Beaverlodge, Alberta
Ok so what about other indications, like properly dovetailed repairs on a rifle with no FTR marks or party burned wood and things like that? I know you can't guarantee it but we know millions of them did serve. And believing that collectible milsurps have to be as they left the factory really is asking for more people to correct their firearms that were repaired, worn etc in service. I think a few of the other new members here hit another point on the head, just because it looks like it just left the factory doesn't mean it is the way it was when it did and the more people who fall into this correcting mentality the more new collectors who are going to get stung. Not many people are going to lug a heavy full length milsurp through the bush for months or years on end anymore either. That look is pretty hard to fake.
Last edited:
Hi flying pic, with all due respect I find this argument very strange. Are you saying that used examples should be more desirable than mint originals or that they are more desirable than the refinished stuff by places like Vulcan?
Mint condition original milsurps have always brought the most value along with those that have identifiable provenance. Condition has always been something collectors look for and finding items in strong original condition is always a challenge.
I've noticed a trend in that most people who collect poor condition milsurps always use the argument of saying these pieces have 'battle history' and they are comfortable to call them 'original'.
For those who like the 'beat up and abused' look I find this argument an extremely weak one. We don't know if the wear is from battlefield use, or more likely from generations of shooters bringing it to the range, poor storage, or god only knows what else.
I think it's silly to believe that all worn out milsurps are 'war vets'.
I suppose with that argument you might consider this 1914 Canadian Contract 1911 pistol not very desirable, because it doesn't have much 'combat wear' or that 'mud of flanders'. However, the pistol was carried by a Military Cross winner in the 31st Battalion who participated in battles including Ypres, Vimy, and Paschendale just to name a few.
Many original combat carried firearms with identifiable provenance brought back by the veterans often surface in this sort of condition if they were properly cared for after the war. Usually the rough guns belong to the collectors that also insisted on bringing them to the range, and I don't think this is just a coincidence.
The guns restored by Vulcan and other refinishing and 'restoration' places in my opinion aren't vey collectible. There's nothing original about them except the often pieced together metal under the refinished surface. Often these restored guns are easily spotted and pose little risk to genuine collectors who mostly don't desire to own them (from my experience/opinion). To be a bit blunt, I also find while these restorations look 'mint' they don't often look original to those who are used to dealing with the real thing. I think these restorations are however good guns for shooters who don't want to ruin nice originals, if reasonably priced.
-Steve
Mint condition original milsurps have always brought the most value along with those that have identifiable provenance. Condition has always been something collectors look for and finding items in strong original condition is always a challenge.
I've noticed a trend in that most people who collect poor condition milsurps always use the argument of saying these pieces have 'battle history' and they are comfortable to call them 'original'.
For those who like the 'beat up and abused' look I find this argument an extremely weak one. We don't know if the wear is from battlefield use, or more likely from generations of shooters bringing it to the range, poor storage, or god only knows what else.
I think it's silly to believe that all worn out milsurps are 'war vets'.
I suppose with that argument you might consider this 1914 Canadian Contract 1911 pistol not very desirable, because it doesn't have much 'combat wear' or that 'mud of flanders'. However, the pistol was carried by a Military Cross winner in the 31st Battalion who participated in battles including Ypres, Vimy, and Paschendale just to name a few.
Many original combat carried firearms with identifiable provenance brought back by the veterans often surface in this sort of condition if they were properly cared for after the war. Usually the rough guns belong to the collectors that also insisted on bringing them to the range, and I don't think this is just a coincidence.
The guns restored by Vulcan and other refinishing and 'restoration' places in my opinion aren't vey collectible. There's nothing original about them except the often pieced together metal under the refinished surface. Often these restored guns are easily spotted and pose little risk to genuine collectors who mostly don't desire to own them (from my experience/opinion). To be a bit blunt, I also find while these restorations look 'mint' they don't often look original to those who are used to dealing with the real thing. I think these restorations are however good guns for shooters who don't want to ruin nice originals, if reasonably priced.
-Steve
Last edited:
New collectors are going to get stung if they don't do the research before buying the gun.
If you buy the books, read the forums, and know what you're looking and it's possible to determine if you're getting a true original or something that has been 'restored'.
If don't do your homework first then just because a gun is 'battle worn' doesn't prove anything. It could also be put together, restored, fake, who knows. Just because a gun is worn out shouldn't make you anymore comfortable with it.
-Steve
- Location
- WMU248 near Edmonton
I have a full range of VG to Ugly and restored sporters in my enfield collection.
I may thin out the racks some day.
But as noted above, if you don't do you research before you buy your likely going to get burnt. But onthe other hand sometimes its good to take the risk as the seller might not know what they have, some recent examples I've seen was a Patt'n13 sold for Patt'n14 price, DCRA conversion sold as a full wood No4, and EAL sold as a sporter. Good prices but the risk was that the seller didn't know what they were describing and the buyer could have ended up buying a run of the mill rifle.
I may thin out the racks some day.
But as noted above, if you don't do you research before you buy your likely going to get burnt. But onthe other hand sometimes its good to take the risk as the seller might not know what they have, some recent examples I've seen was a Patt'n13 sold for Patt'n14 price, DCRA conversion sold as a full wood No4, and EAL sold as a sporter. Good prices but the risk was that the seller didn't know what they were describing and the buyer could have ended up buying a run of the mill rifle.
- Location
- Beaverlodge, Alberta
Steve1987, very true on all points. I'm very inexperienced in collecting and I really don't have a lot of very nice examples, but I do collect what I really like. I have lucked out a few times in the past and found beautiful examples of certain rifles but as they didn't do it for me I sold them. Maybe I'm not a collector, just an enthusiast. It just seems to me that not factoring in price point, it seems that rifles showing honest, not messed with since in the service, wear, are becoming the hardest for me to find. Perhaps it's because the worn out junk has been passed off as worn out junk for so long idk. I like them though!
Nothing wrong with that at all. Of course different interests and aspects for different people.
I think not many people are necessarily suited to be a 'collector' which basically consists of caring for these sort of things and keeping them oiled and untouched in the safe. I've never brought what I consider to be a collectible rifle to the range, but I'm really not a shooter anyway. Few people can be both a collector and shooter in my opinion and I think eventually just goes one way or the other.
Cheers,
-Steve
The type of rifles you describe, are actually in the minority. Many of those rifles were arsenal refurbished by trained REMEs. What most people don't seem to realize is that the Canadian, British and US makers of the Lee Enfields were held to rigorous standards, for the time, and all of their parts were and still are interchangeable.
It wasn't uncommon for them to have parts from every manufacturer in their respective bins. They made little, if any effort to make sure the rifles they were refurbishing were getting matched parts. Same goes for Garands. Serious Garand collectors shy away from Garands that have all matching manufacturers parts. The chances are very good the rifle was a put together or a regular issued rifle that was "enhanced."
Even the manufacturers of the above two firearms were notorious for mixing and matching parts. Especially wood.
My aunt used to work at the Long Branch facility and one of her jobs was keeping the stock fitters supplied with the various bits of wood. She commented that she really disliked the Savage contract wood, which were often made by sub contractors. Not because they were inferior in any way but because they didn't insist on drying the wood as well as their Canadian counterparts. She could carry 15 fore ends or 15 butts if they were Canadian or 10-12 of each if they were US.
I was interested and asked her about matching up the parts. She just laughed and said "Goodness No. We didn't have time for that and many of the fitters were on a bonus system. You just brought them whatever was available and on hand. Sometimes we would go for days fitting US wood and other metal parts. It didn't matter. They did try to keep all of the wood runs together though. It often happened that different wood was mixed together on the same rifle. Sometimes, they would stain the batches a dark brown, because they were to light in color. It all depended on the shift foreman and manager."
After a year in the rifle plant, she applied for and got a job in another facility where her job was polishing and deburring case mouths on 20 mm cases. She liked that job. She had a quota to keep up to and at the end of the week, if her quota was exceeded, she got a nice bonus.
She was a farm girl from Beisicker Alberta. She had never been away from home before and only made it into town twice per year. The free room and board as well as the good wages were just to good to pass up. They also paid her way to and from the city and from the bunkhouses to the plant. She told me they never had to leave the area. The company provided movies, dances, food, laundry services and lots of other entertainment. She joined an acting group and participated in several short plays.
Quite the old girl. She lives in Cardston now and her mental health is waning with time. She has had an on and off again battle with Cancer for the last 30 years and has been on a timed chemo drip ever since. Doesn't hold her back one bit. She goes to church 3 times per week and makes quilts and baby blankets for the needy. Her quilts and blankets are works of art. They would sell for big dollars but she always tells the buyers that she has more than enough to get by on and the babies need it more.
Yep, there I go again, running off at the keyboard. My apologies.
- Location
- Leduc County, Alberta
Bearhunter, your aunt sounds like a true Gem! Love hearing about men and women in their later years still being active and making a difference in others lives!
