A reflection about Bullet performance

J

JasonYuke

CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Rating - 100%
152   0   0
Location
North Kawartha's
Ok do not jump down my throat!:eek:

Was down stairs rooting through my supplies, componants, and reflecting back 10-15, years ago when loading mostly for my hunting guns, 30-06, 270s, 308s, and a 300 win mag. I looked in what I call the old pile, of Hdy bullets now replaced with accubonds and TSX bullets at 3 times the cost..

Pulled out some targets shot 12-15 years ago with these now almost obsolite (new thinking) Hdy Sps and looked at the groups and thought Dam, these look pretty good....the old sps shot like a house on fire, which was true,, bonded bullets in genral do not shoot as accurate at soft bullets like the Ballistic tips, or Sps. This is my findings, yours may be different

Than pulled out the old photo albums, (realized I am grey now, and have less hair ) lol! but reflected on the kills, that were made on all game, moose, bear, deer...and thought to myself, all these animals were recovered and in short order..humm.

I am usually the guy preaching good bullet selection and new bonded bullets, but I started to realize, I have nothing to back this up by... nothing I had shot in the past or no bullet failure was ever prestented to me..at any velocity, and had launched some pretty fast projectiles from wby magnums in light bullets for the calibers. I have never seen a bullet fail to date, even the old soft ones that were handed down as a boy to me from my uncles, and grandfathers.

I am not sure where I am going with this, but have any of you guys sat down and thought about how good barnes, Nosler and speer have sold the new technology to us..I am sure there is value in good bullets, but if you think of it this way it almost does not make sence... I pay 55-70 $ for 50 projectiles when I could buy a box of Hdy Sps per 100 for $30-35.00. and they shoot as well or better, and have blown right through moose and bear on more than one occasion, Infact SP bullets have prduced some of teh quickest knock down kills for me. You think back to Jacky Os and Kieths days of what they had to work with, which ws much less than the hdy sps, and you hear little about bullet failure, from the late 60s on.

If you look at the key element shot placement, are we worried, or sold on something that may not exist..
Starting to think we are..

I loaded up an old faithful Hndy Sp round tonight for my 308, and 300 win mag for deer... I am going to try these again, yes I have bonded bullets but I think I need to prove it to myself that these old Sps will still do the trick, just as always..

I do think you can not go wrong with the new, as there are times and places for it, and at high velocity, with some screaming cartridges. I will continue using the new as well for Big game.. just a reflection.
 
Last edited:
Great post it's very refreshing to hear , especially from someone who has been succesfull with the old cup & core stuff . I have found that shot placement is key , even killed stuff with cast bullet's before some may call that an impossible feat nowaday's.
 
Only had one failure Nosler Partition out of a 7mm STW, was pushing it fast and it peeled and went through with little damage. Other than that I go down in weight and caliber each year for deer. Now shooting 2506 with 100 gr's. like the 6.45 55 with 129gr. me so Hornady's and would love to shoot a few with a .243. Will stick with the TSX for moose but deer are killed easily being thin skinned medium game, and I shoot better not having to soak up recoil and cost.
 
I'm another that sees no need to switch to premium bullets for hunting. Never had a problem killing anything with what I use and fully intend to keep on using them. Tested lots of premium bullets at the range and mostly they don't shoot as good as simple cup and core bullets. Kinda annoys me that 50 bullets for $60 don't shoot half as good as 100 bullets for $20 do. Got probably 1000 rounds of assorted partially left over boxes of premium bullets, accubonds, e-tips, tsx's, etc laying around the reloading bench gathering dust that I've tried out for ####s and giggles. I'll waste em on paper eventually. I hunt with regular bullets.
 
Last edited:
I have a pail full of 165gr interlocks for the 308's. They shoot great, and I'm pretty sure they'll kill a deer...:D

Moose, I'll stick with the higher end bullets. Not because I have to, but because I can...
 
Jason Yuke, you are now singing from my hymn book! The guys on here must be tired of hearing me sing the praises of the good old, long forgotten CIL Dominion Copper Point Expanding.
I have no doubt the new, expensive bullets with the fancy or tricky sounding designations are good. But their makers have reached new heights in advertising and selling them to the public as the only sure thing to use for adequately shooting game. But don't sell the old type bullets short. I came across a 1950 issue Outdoor Life Magazine and Jack O had an article on the 25th anniversary of the introduction of the 270 cartridge. Here is something I got from it.
OC2.jpg


Not bad for a 1925 creation!
 
Shooting my .30/06 last winter I shot several MOA groups at 300 yards, my bullet was the 180 gr Remington bulk bullet. This excited me because I had gone to no special effort when loading the ammo other than to ensure it would feed and fire reliably and because I fired those groups with irons! While I doubt that I could repeat that performance on demand it does show that you can do some decent shooting with an inexpensive bullet.

Now I don't think that premium game bullets necessarily produce better hunting accuracy than the common cup and core bullets, nor do they always produce better performance on game, but particularly when the impact velocity is on the high side the premium can produce more consistent performance with less chance of failure. Bullet failure is often poo-pooed by some, but when it has happened to you, you will want to make adjustments to prevent a repeat performance.

The premiums have also made it tempting to hunt big game with varmint rounds like the .223. If you are going to hunt big game with a .22 centerfire, I'm all for the premium as the choice of bullet. If you shoot a big game rifle with a cartridge that drives a normal to heavy for caliber bullet at moderate velocity there is little to be gained by the choice of a premium bullet, but then again what is the price of a bullet compared to the cost of the hunt.
 
How probable is over-expansion and failure to penetrate with a standard soft point bullet fired from a magnum at close range (less than 100 yards)? Is it inevitable, likely, possible, occassional, seldom? Bullets are getting hard to find these days and all that's left on the shelves are the expensive Barnes and Noslers.
 
I've always observed quicker kills with comparatively "soft" bullets at high velocities. The advertisers have got a lot of the buyers more focussed on what a bullet is supposed to look like than what it is supposed to do.
If you have to bet on whether a deer is going to hit the ground faster when hit through the ribs with a Hornady, NBT, or a TSX you will lose money betting on TSXs.
 
338wm

I shot my first black bear this year with my Tikka T3 SS lite in 338WM and I was using a Hornady 225 SPBT bullet. It effectively went in the chest close to the front left shoulder and I found it in the right rear quarter. It peeled back and did it's job. The bear expired in 2 seconds, or just long enough to make it to the other side of the bait.

I could have used the Nosler 210 partitions, Barnes 185 X or Nosler 250 Gold moly partitions but I chose the Hornady's only because they grouped slightly better than the rest.

That being said I will probably use the Nosler 250 gold partition moly's for moose. I like the heavier bullets for the bigger animals and it's always nice to try something different.
 
Nosler Partition is about as far as I ever take the "super bullet" craze and then only in the .25 to 28 caliber stuff.
I've killed way too much stuff dead in its tracks with regular Hornady,Sierra and Speer cup and core bullets to get in a tizzy about loading something more.
If I feel the need for more knockdown power and bullet penetration I break out the .338 and 250 grain Sierra's.
Let physics take care of the rest.
 
this was the first year i shot game with a non premium bullet. i bought a couple of boxes of cheap win power point in 7 mag to test out the new tikka t3 laminate. at the range it shot 3/4 inch triangles. two good size bear two shots.recovered bullets didn't look great but the bears were dead in short order.
 
Hi

Excellent posting JasonYuke.

I've been shooting since I was 14 years old. I'm 43 now and I'm only now starting to hunt things bigger then varmint class.

I've been experimenting with a box of Barnes Tipped TSX bullets, .308 150grn.

My rifle is a Rem 700 mountain rifle in .308 win with a pencil thin 22inch bbl.

A couple of weeks back I shot a 3 shot group at 100y. the three shots triangled, giving me 3/4 C to C MOA at it's widest spacing, using SIERRA's 150 SBT Gameking bullet being pushed by 46 grains of Reloder 15, doing 2745fps. Also, the point of aim, was the point of impact.

Using the Barnes bullets, first of I dropped the powder charge by 1 grain to 45. Seating the bullet way out there to just under 2.830", one of the grooves was visible, I did this to have as much room for powder as possible.

Anyway, I'll keep this short, The gun kicked more, (primers looked the same for both loads) Point of impact is 1 to 2 inches to the left, groups string horizontally, the one was around 4 inches the other 2 inches, the velocity 2720FPS. Not impressed

I've loaded a few more, but if the results are the same, I'll have a box of 40 Branes bullets for sale in the EE.

I could try another powder, but I really don't want to start load testing. RL15 works with all the rifles I shoot and with sierra bullets in this one, and I have enough on hand, I'm not shopping for new powders.

Sticker
 
Last edited:
A great post and a good read. I've pondered similar questions after reflecting back over 45 + years of hunting and shooting. When I started out, conventional bullets were the order of the day and the use of premium bullets was a rarity and seldom seen. I first used 150gr for Deer and 180gr for Moose in my 303Br and if I was really lucky, Dad would pick up some 'real' Moose medicine, the 215gr C.I.L. ammo.

Years later, and once I got into reloading, I did use some of the more premium bullets like Noslers and Speer Grand Slams. After some trial & error though, a more traditional type bullet became my main 'go to' primarily because of the accuracy results and therefore the confidence in making the shot. That was the Sierra Game King or SBT in a number of calibers.

Now, in a few calibers, I am changing over to Barnes TTSX or at least in the process of testing and load development. The main reason for for the change is the apparent difference in the amount of meat damage that my son in law pointed out to me. I guess it's because of the fragmentation of lead, especially on game shot at close range.

Anyway, I will give the TTSX a good tryout in three calibers. The down side, they are pricey.
 
My point was people under estimate how good some of the old bullets were. From personal experience and from the experience of others, with much more experience than me, I think the old Dominion Copper Point Expanding was at least as good, maybe better, than the Nosler partition.
I enclosed a copy of Jack O'Connor's report on the early 270 Winchester developement, where he states the best 130 grain bullet he had ever seen for the 270, was the bullet Winchester developed for it when they introduced the cartridge in 1925. Of course, the fancy named bullets we are talking about as modern super bullets were not around in J. O. day, but he did use a lot of Nosler partition.
Most people don't realize how long ago it was that Barnes custom bullets came on the market. In about 1947 or 1948, Jack O'Connor wrote an article in Outdoor Life about the new bullets Fred Barnes was making. He said the jackets were made from copper tubing, the same as you could buy in a hardware store. When the lead was put inside, the nose was squeezed to a point with lead showing at the tip. They were designed to open up at the nose on impact, then the very heavy jackets held everything together, for deep penetraton.
I had a brother who read Jack's article, then promptly sent for batches in 150 grain and 200 grain weights. A friend of his reloaded them for him.
I can attest that those Barnes bullets, in 150 grain, gave me the quickest, knockdown power on moose of any bullet I had used. Once in the bush a bull moose jumped up in front of me and took off straight away, holding his head too low for a shot at it. I aimed right at his tail and let fly with one of those 150 grain Barnes. Mommentom carried the mose about thirty feet, before he went down.
 
I've personally used (or witnessed used) the following on-game.

180 grain Winchester PowerPoint's (303 British) on lots of deer, a few elk, even a bear, some grouse, groundhogs, etc. Zero bullet failures, all critters died in short order. Most big game ran 20 to 40 yards unless hit in the spine/head.

165 grain Hornady IL at 2800FPS-ish impact: deer, dead-right-there.

168 grain Nosler ballistic tips, 2650FPS-ish impact; two deer, both of them went down like they'd been hit with a truck -- awesome!!!

150 grain Nosler AccuBonds, 2800FPS-ish and 2700FPS-ish impact -- two deer, both of them dead-right-there (not quite as spectacular a knock-down as the BT's, but still awesome!).

180 grain Winchester powerpoint (30-06), one deer at 60 yards, dead-right-there (despite some rather poor shot placement, oddly enough!).

180 grain Hornady Interlock (30-06), deer, dead-right-there.

165 grain Hornady InterBond: 1 elk (1 bullet, 2200FPS impact), 1 deer (2 bullets, 2500FPS impact), all three failed to expand until impact with bone. Took 4 days to find the elk (he ran a long way, never would have found him except for the crows), and the deer was only recovered because the bullet hit the off-side shoulder -- the pass-through the vitals did no significant damage. Never again.

180 grain Sierra's (303 British). 1 mule deer, shot repeatedly through the lungs at close range (inside 30 yards) until I was out of bullets. Post mortem revealed ice-pick like holes going straight through, and after I ran out of ammo, I watched the deer go lay down. It took it a good 15+ minutes to die. Never again.


So -- in conclusion -- I've learned to like a soft-ish bullet. I've kind of settled on Nosler AccuBond's for 'light-for-caliber/high velocity' stuff, and Nosler Ballistic Tips for 'heavy for caliber/sub-2800FPS' stuff. I want a good "splat" when the bullet gets there; and I don't shoot critters in the good eatin parts, so I don't really care if it wrecks the meat for 6 inches on either side of the bullet hole -- rib meat isn't good for nothing but burger anyway.
 
Hunters have been killing animals for a long time using cast bullets and regular cup and core bullets. As always, shot placement is the key thing.

I use a bunch of different bullets in my firearms, from cast bullets to the highest tech TTSX bullets. For hunting, I tend to go to the premium bullets, and why not?

The only reason I can think of to use a non premium hunting bullet is to save money. The TSX, TTSX and Accubond (premiums I shoot mostly these days) are very accurate, and kill very well. So accuracy and killing ability isn't an issue.

I'm really not that worried about cost for a hunting bullet. Lets say I buy a box of TTSX bullets for $50 and use all 50 bullets in a hunting season (I have never used 50 rounds in a hunting season, but let's just say:)). I've spent $35 more than if I shot 50 Hornadys @ $30 a box of 100. More likely I use half of that- So my savings if I used Hornady would actually be about $15, maybe $20 for a hunting season. I honestly don't think my bank account would even notice it!:p

Shot placement is key but with a premium bullet you may be able to increase your opportunity for good shot placement. And as I've said before- I want a bullet that works when everything goes wrong, not just when everything goes right!:)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom