I shoot regularly and from what I see at the range the "average" hunter probably shoots 10 rounds or less per season and most don't reload. I see many guys who fire 5 or less shots and are good to go! For these guys a box of premium ammo will last 3 or 4 years so cost shouldn't be an issue. Of course most guys on here are more avid shooters and don't fall into the average catagory.
A reflection about Bullet performance
- Thread starter JasonYuke
- Start date
I think price is drawn into this too much, I agree it is not a huge expence from one to the other.
The fact of the matter specialy on deer, moose, and black bear, I do not recall any of the core locks or iterlocks performing any different, other than making a larger hole, even on bone conact, than the newer bonded bullets. They still broke bone, and mostly exited the far side. I do not recall anything much different, in field performance from one to the other a it more shell shocking clean up,, I will agree.
I would tend to agree also if hunting things that will eat you or stamp you a tsx is good reason enough to use, as it will put that feeling of comfort in your shot.
But the old soft bullets shot well! thats for sure, like I said I went back to some old loads to try out again..for deer this year.
The fact of the matter specialy on deer, moose, and black bear, I do not recall any of the core locks or iterlocks performing any different, other than making a larger hole, even on bone conact, than the newer bonded bullets. They still broke bone, and mostly exited the far side. I do not recall anything much different, in field performance from one to the other a it more shell shocking clean up,, I will agree.
I would tend to agree also if hunting things that will eat you or stamp you a tsx is good reason enough to use, as it will put that feeling of comfort in your shot.
But the old soft bullets shot well! thats for sure, like I said I went back to some old loads to try out again..for deer this year.
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Yup, true for broadside shots and for "normal" hunting cartridges. But if you choose to take a shot that goes from the rear left hip to the right shoulder, a premium will help. If you are using a smaller cartridge than "normal" a premium bullet will help. As I said- Premiums open up options.
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Old bullets shoot well, and so do premiums. Frankly, I've found TSX and TTSX bullets easier to work up a load for, and more accurate than the Hornadys I use for practice. The most accurate hunting bullets I've used are Nosler Ballistic Tips, Barnes TSX/TTSX and Nosler Accubonds. Speers, Hornady Interlocks etc can be accurate, of course.
Yup, true for broadside shots and for "normal" hunting cartridges. But if you choose to take a shot that goes from the rear left hip to the right shoulder, a premium will help. If you are using a smaller cartridge than "normal" a premium bullet will help. As I said- Premiums open up options.
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Old bullets shoot well, and so do premiums. Frankly, I've found TSX and TTSX bullets easier to work up a load for, and more accurate than the Hornadys I use for practice. The most accurate hunting bullets I've used are Nosler Ballistic Tips, Barnes TSX/TTSX and Nosler Accubonds. Speers, Hornady Interlocks etc can be accurate, of course.
Jason, this was a good thread to start. Thanks again.
I've got lots of old bullets. So many in fact that I sold at least 50 different full boxes of Noslers, Barnes, Hornady, Woodleigh, Sierra, Herters, Speer and yes, Bruce's beloved Dominion Copper Points in 50 round boxes, individually packaged in partitioned plastic trays. There were also several 100 round bags of bulk bullets from Century International that I have no idea who made them, mostly 6.5 and 308 diameter. This was all at the Vernon Gun Show. The bullets all lasted till about 10:30am on the first morning of the show. I kept a few boxes back to sell later and to attract a little attention to the tables, they were usually taken up in minutes. The only stuff that didn't sell, was a box of 50, Barnes 190 grain 7mm. Not surprised.
Your post caused me to go back and check my records as well. The only bullet that ever failed me was a Sierra Game King, 250grain, 338. It blew up on a rib of a moose at 75 yards and didn't even penetrate past it, just blew away a fist sized chunk. The second bullet hit the rib beside the first one and did a spectacular job and carried on right through, never to be found. That batch of bullets had issues right from the start. Great groups at 100 yds, then key holes and scattered groups at 200 yds. (I usually buy at least 500 bullets of a given lot to avoid having to work up loads.) I sent the bullets back to Sierra with an explanation on their dime, as per their instructions and they quickly checked the bullets and found that their jacket material was faulty and separating from the core in flight after 125 yards or so. They sent me 10/50 new boxes of bullets and they all performed perfectly. Any other issues I've had with bullets I can attribute the blame to aggressive loading practises in my youth. I used to do foolish things back then like use 2400 with magnum primers in the 30 M1 Carbine. Bruce, aka H4831, and I were discussing what would happen with just a primer and bullet but no powder situation. In the 30M1, the 110 grain half jacket bullet went about 10 inches up the bore and stuck. He didn't have that issue, probably the small case?
I still use the old bullets, some of them are at least 60 years old, like the Green/White box CIL brands or the Western and Herter's. They are as accurate as is needed for most sensible ranges out to 300+yds and perform as advertised.
I've also heard some complaints about the early PMC ammunition not expanding. I can't say, I've never shot any game with them, I didn't like their accuracy in my rifles.
Again, good posts and thread, it has given me a good reason to go through my records and reassess my reloading materials. Some of the price tags on the boxes bring tears to my eyes, 110 grain, 30 cal hollopoint Speers for $2.75/100 and $3.25 for 50, 405 grain 458 jacketed round nose Speer, from the old White Elephant Store in Spokane. Those were truly golden times.
I've got lots of old bullets. So many in fact that I sold at least 50 different full boxes of Noslers, Barnes, Hornady, Woodleigh, Sierra, Herters, Speer and yes, Bruce's beloved Dominion Copper Points in 50 round boxes, individually packaged in partitioned plastic trays. There were also several 100 round bags of bulk bullets from Century International that I have no idea who made them, mostly 6.5 and 308 diameter. This was all at the Vernon Gun Show. The bullets all lasted till about 10:30am on the first morning of the show. I kept a few boxes back to sell later and to attract a little attention to the tables, they were usually taken up in minutes. The only stuff that didn't sell, was a box of 50, Barnes 190 grain 7mm. Not surprised.
Your post caused me to go back and check my records as well. The only bullet that ever failed me was a Sierra Game King, 250grain, 338. It blew up on a rib of a moose at 75 yards and didn't even penetrate past it, just blew away a fist sized chunk. The second bullet hit the rib beside the first one and did a spectacular job and carried on right through, never to be found. That batch of bullets had issues right from the start. Great groups at 100 yds, then key holes and scattered groups at 200 yds. (I usually buy at least 500 bullets of a given lot to avoid having to work up loads.) I sent the bullets back to Sierra with an explanation on their dime, as per their instructions and they quickly checked the bullets and found that their jacket material was faulty and separating from the core in flight after 125 yards or so. They sent me 10/50 new boxes of bullets and they all performed perfectly. Any other issues I've had with bullets I can attribute the blame to aggressive loading practises in my youth. I used to do foolish things back then like use 2400 with magnum primers in the 30 M1 Carbine. Bruce, aka H4831, and I were discussing what would happen with just a primer and bullet but no powder situation. In the 30M1, the 110 grain half jacket bullet went about 10 inches up the bore and stuck. He didn't have that issue, probably the small case?
I still use the old bullets, some of them are at least 60 years old, like the Green/White box CIL brands or the Western and Herter's. They are as accurate as is needed for most sensible ranges out to 300+yds and perform as advertised.
I've also heard some complaints about the early PMC ammunition not expanding. I can't say, I've never shot any game with them, I didn't like their accuracy in my rifles.
Again, good posts and thread, it has given me a good reason to go through my records and reassess my reloading materials. Some of the price tags on the boxes bring tears to my eyes, 110 grain, 30 cal hollopoint Speers for $2.75/100 and $3.25 for 50, 405 grain 458 jacketed round nose Speer, from the old White Elephant Store in Spokane. Those were truly golden times.
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
X2 Bearhunter. A lot of the input to this thread, like yours and that of H4831 in particular, has also been detailed, entertaining, enlightening and informative. Definately a good read.
That's quite a problem related to the failure of the 250gr Sierra Game Kings in the 338WM and of particular interest to me as that's exactly what I've been loading for my son in the B.C interior. He's used them on Deer, Black Bear and Moose and swears by them.
I used to load Game Kings, in a 30-06, for a hunting partner who used them with great success on a number of Moose hunts in the central interior. In a couple of those instances, what really impressed me about those GK's out of his '06 is a couple we were able to recover, the jacket, though still attached, was well mushroomed and peeled right back to the boattail.
Again, a most enjoyable read.
That's quite a problem related to the failure of the 250gr Sierra Game Kings in the 338WM and of particular interest to me as that's exactly what I've been loading for my son in the B.C interior. He's used them on Deer, Black Bear and Moose and swears by them.
I used to load Game Kings, in a 30-06, for a hunting partner who used them with great success on a number of Moose hunts in the central interior. In a couple of those instances, what really impressed me about those GK's out of his '06 is a couple we were able to recover, the jacket, though still attached, was well mushroomed and peeled right back to the boattail.
Again, a most enjoyable read
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Bearhunter and JP,, this is great , and believe it or not for years I used the same load with my m-70 338 pushed 4831 with 250 gr S Game Kings.
Back in the 90s I shot a 6 foot bear and the bullet passed through with good expansion. The last animal I shot with the 338 was a deer in i thing 2002, at about 75 yards again with a SGK, the bullet again passed through with little expansion (lunged him) and the deer if I recall correct travelled a better part of 120 yards before he bled out.
I switched bullets in 2003 when I went on a elk hunt in BC I went to the speer Grand slam bullet which I have stil on the shelf, but could not get MOA accuracy with these as I could with teh SGKs. In 2004 I loaded up a friend some round for his 338 and tried soe H 4831 SC max loads with 250 gr interlock hdys,,, been shooting these ever since they drive tacks, shot a bear in 2004 that devistated the thing, that bullet works well for me, lots of damage but no failure, also took a deer that fall that flattened it rib shot. I would not be affraid to hammer any animal with this combo.
Another SGK bullet that has worked well for me has beed the Pro hunter bullet in both the 270 and 243 cals. shot a number of animals with this bullet in lighter cals, that produced some dramatic kills of course on smaller game like deer.
Back in the 90s I shot a 6 foot bear and the bullet passed through with good expansion. The last animal I shot with the 338 was a deer in i thing 2002, at about 75 yards again with a SGK, the bullet again passed through with little expansion (lunged him) and the deer if I recall correct travelled a better part of 120 yards before he bled out.
I switched bullets in 2003 when I went on a elk hunt in BC I went to the speer Grand slam bullet which I have stil on the shelf, but could not get MOA accuracy with these as I could with teh SGKs. In 2004 I loaded up a friend some round for his 338 and tried soe H 4831 SC max loads with 250 gr interlock hdys,,, been shooting these ever since they drive tacks, shot a bear in 2004 that devistated the thing, that bullet works well for me, lots of damage but no failure, also took a deer that fall that flattened it rib shot. I would not be affraid to hammer any animal with this combo.
Another SGK bullet that has worked well for me has beed the Pro hunter bullet in both the 270 and 243 cals. shot a number of animals with this bullet in lighter cals, that produced some dramatic kills of course on smaller game like deer.
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
The accuracy results I've obtained with the SGK's and SBT's is the primary reason for that design of bullet being my main 'go to' bullet in a number of calibers. When I got my 25-06 a few years ago, the 117gr Sierra SBT was the first bullet I tested. At our local, somewhat informal range, witnessed, I shot a three shot group at 185 yds that measured 0.486". I've since shot a few more comparable targets. With that accuracy, I haven't tried much else in it.
lots of interesting readingAacuracy is also very important to me in a hunting rifle, which is why I like to use TSX, TTSX and Accubond premium bullets.
375 Ruger, 270gr TSX bbullets. Left side is ladder load work up wiht differnet powder charges, rigth side is the charge I settled on.
Teh 270gr Hornady Interlocks were a little less accurate but still good for most hunting purposes(load work up pic)
300RUM 180gr TSX
7RM 140gr TSX work up, 3 differnet powder charges
12 different charges
30-30 WInchester, 130gr TSX, 5 shot group + 1 pulled shot
375 Ruger 260gr Accubond
Yup, I sure do like the accuracy AND the terminal performance of the premium bullets!
375 Ruger, 270gr TSX bbullets. Left side is ladder load work up wiht differnet powder charges, rigth side is the charge I settled on.
Teh 270gr Hornady Interlocks were a little less accurate but still good for most hunting purposes(load work up pic)
300RUM 180gr TSX
7RM 140gr TSX work up, 3 differnet powder charges
12 different charges
30-30 WInchester, 130gr TSX, 5 shot group + 1 pulled shot
375 Ruger 260gr Accubond
Yup, I sure do like the accuracy AND the terminal performance of the premium bullets!
Ok do not jump down my throat!
Was down stairs rooting through my supplies, componants, and reflecting back 10-15, years ago when loading mostly for my hunting guns, 30-06, 270s, 308s, and a 300 win mag. I looked in what I call the old pile, of Hdy bullets now replaced with accubonds and TSX bullets at 3 times the cost..
Pulled out some targets shot 12-15 years ago with these now almost obsolite (new thinking) Hdy Sps and looked at the groups and thought Dam, these look pretty good....the old sps shot like a house on fire, which was true,, bonded bullets in genral do not shoot as accurate at soft bullets like the Ballistic tips, or Sps. This is my findings, yours may be different
Than pulled out the old photo albums, (realized I am grey now, and have less hair ) lol! but reflected on the kills, that were made on all game, moose, bear, deer...and thought to myself, all these animals were recovered and in short order..humm.
I am usually the guy preaching good bullet selection and new bonded bullets, but I started to realize, I have nothing to back this up by... nothing I had shot in the past or no bullet failure was ever prestented to me..at any velocity, and had launched some pretty fast projectiles from wby magnums in light bullets for the calibers. I have never seen a bullet fail to date, even the old soft ones that were handed down as a boy to me from my uncles, and grandfathers.
I am not sure where I am going with this, but have any of you guys sat down and thought about how good barnes, Nosler and speer have sold the new technology to us..I am sure there is value in good bullets, but if you think of it this way it almost does not make sence... I pay 55-70 $ for 50 projectiles when I could buy a box of Hdy Sps per 100 for $30-35.00. and they shoot as well or better, and have blown right through moose and bear on more than one occasion, Infact SP bullets have prduced some of teh quickest knock down kills for me. You think back to Jacky Os and Kieths days of what they had to work with, which ws much less than the hdy sps, and you hear little about bullet failure, from the late 60s on.
If you look at the key element shot placement, are we worried, or sold on something that may not exist..
Starting to think we are..
I loaded up an old faithful Hndy Sp round tonight for my 308, and 300 win mag for deer... I am going to try these again, yes I have bonded bullets but I think I need to prove it to myself that these old Sps will still do the trick, just as always..
I do think you can not go wrong with the new, as there are times and places for it, and at high velocity, with some screaming cartridges. I will continue using the new as well for Big game.. just a reflection.
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
I have to get the 'posting' of pictures down one of these days.While in the process of change over to premium in a few calibers, I've already mentioned some of the results I've obtained with some of the more 'traditional' stuff. I have scans of these targets but.......
Measurement wise, they are as follows;
- 219 DW, @ 100 yds, 0.168"
- .25-06, @ 185 yds, 0.486"
- .308 Norma Mag, @ 100 yds, 0.722"
- 375 H&H, @ 100 yds, 1.070"
- 444 Marlin, @ 100 yds, 1.814"
- 500 S&W, @ 20 yds, 0.646"
.While in the process of change over to premium in a few calibers, I've already mentioned some of the results I've obtained with some of the more 'traditional' stuff. I have scans of these targets but.......Measurement wise, they are as follows;
- 219 DW, @ 100 yds, 0.168"
- .25-06, @ 185 yds, 0.486"
- .308 Norma Mag, @ 100 yds, 0.722"
- 375 H&H, @ 100 yds, 1.070"
- 444 Marlin, @ 100 yds, 1.814"
- 500 S&W, @ 20 yds, 0.646"
I have to get the 'posting' of pictures down one of these days
Measurement wise, they are as follows;
- 219 DW, @ 100 yds, 0.168"
- .25-06, @ 185 yds, 0.486"
- .308 Norma Mag, @ 100 yds, 0.722"
- 375 H&H, @ 100 yds, 1.070"
- 444 Marlin, @ 100 yds, 1.814"
- 500 S&W, @ 20 yds, 0.646"
Yup, it's pretty clear that both premium and standard bullets can be very accurate- Quite a bit more accurate than needed for hunting, in most cases.
That is why I prefer the premiums- Thier accuracy and terminal performance opens up more shot opportunities, and at such a minimal cost.
So how is that Barnes stock doing anyways?
I don't think Barnes trades publicly, but if it did,,I'd buy some stock. They have had the most innovative bullet designs in the last 15 years or more. Lots of bullet companies copying Barnes concepts and designs now, too.
LOL! Gatehouse you should be the CO of the company I would buy from you , I will give you credit as it is a good bullet, But I will still argue dead is still dead and there aint anything that you can make deader lol!
Barnes should have a good bullet they had 100 years to think about it lol! and we are still paying for the development of it. I do not anyone here is saying teh bullet is bad, quite the opposite, its very good. But 20 years ago, there bullets were well Junk!
I use them all the time infact TSXs, and MRXs, and are loaded in all my magums, and if going on a Big game hunt or dangerous game hunt, they are loaded and ready.
But Deer, moose, and black bear tend not to care so much what you shoot them with..
The fact is the Old soft point still produce great results on our light skin big game in North America. When animals are only 12-18 inches thick, you do not need a very well built bullet to reach lung or break a 2 inch bone to hit the heart. Thats all I am not arguing with you I am just reflecting on kill sof teh past that I have seen, and done.
I am sure in your early days you used these bullets as well.
Barnes should have a good bullet they had 100 years to think about it lol! and we are still paying for the development of it. I do not anyone here is saying teh bullet is bad, quite the opposite, its very good. But 20 years ago, there bullets were well Junk!
I use them all the time infact TSXs, and MRXs, and are loaded in all my magums, and if going on a Big game hunt or dangerous game hunt, they are loaded and ready.
But Deer, moose, and black bear tend not to care so much what you shoot them with..
The fact is the Old soft point still produce great results on our light skin big game in North America. When animals are only 12-18 inches thick, you do not need a very well built bullet to reach lung or break a 2 inch bone to hit the heart. Thats all I am not arguing with you I am just reflecting on kill sof teh past that I have seen, and done.
I am sure in your early days you used these bullets as well.
Boomer, I have stated on here that my brother bought a batch of those Barnes bullets with the copper tubing jackets, in about 1947.
He got them in 150 and 200 grain weight for the 30-06, after Jack O'Connor bragged them up.
I have about five of them left, in the 200 grain. We shot moose with them and I have stated here before, that the 150s gave exceptionally quick kills on moose.
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
Good to hear
. While in AB a few weeks ago, on one of my 'shopping trips' in the Edmonton area, I picked up a few boxes of Barnes Originals in 220gr and a few more boxes in 250gr for my model 71 Winchester. The Hornady 200grFP's work well but I couldn't resist the opportunity to pick up the Originals and look forward to trying them out.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
I have a box of 175 gr 7mm on my bench. According to the label the jackets are.032". Its interesting that the base of each bullet has a small hole in the center, perhaps that is what is left of the open end of the tube. Anyway, I don't intend to use them.
