Agree, and emphasize "slowly". Very slowly, very carefully. - dan
About Colt Single Action Grips
- Thread starter Moe
- Start date
Agree, and emphasize "slowly". Very slowly, very carefully. - dan
My Pietta 1873 came with standard one-piece stocks. I mean, that's the way they looked in the Cavalry, but I wanted the rubbers. Mine's on top. The wife's is below.
I ordered a set from Vintage Grips in the U.S. . They DID NOT fit. So, I sent them back (100% my cost) and sent drawings and photos and sketches and grip tracings and backstrap tracings and ad nauseum and got back a set that -- well -- came close to fitting. A bit of sanding, and a bit of stretching (boil the grip for 30 - 40 seconds, just the area you want to stretch and stretch it out. Hint: wear gloves or you'll scald yourself. If you're lucky it will come out like mine did. Mine is the bottom one in this photo.
I forgot to mention that, in my case, I had to drill the hole and fabricate a pin to hold the stocks in place. Since yours came with the rubber stocks you should already have the pin and hole drilled from the factory. (They only drilled the hole and supplied the pin for the two-piece stocks generally. Single piece grips did not use it so it usually was not drilled through.)
I ordered a set from Vintage Grips in the U.S. . They DID NOT fit. So, I sent them back (100% my cost) and sent drawings and photos and sketches and grip tracings and backstrap tracings and ad nauseum and got back a set that -- well -- came close to fitting. A bit of sanding, and a bit of stretching (boil the grip for 30 - 40 seconds, just the area you want to stretch and stretch it out. Hint: wear gloves or you'll scald yourself. If you're lucky it will come out like mine did. Mine is the bottom one in this photo.
I forgot to mention that, in my case, I had to drill the hole and fabricate a pin to hold the stocks in place. Since yours came with the rubber stocks you should already have the pin and hole drilled from the factory. (They only drilled the hole and supplied the pin for the two-piece stocks generally. Single piece grips did not use it so it usually was not drilled through.)
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I am going to spend Jan and Feb in North Carolina. I will snoop around in the area for anyone there who does this work and contemplate sending the gun down after if I feel enough trust enough to send an antique Colt SAA south of the border.
Thanks for all the advice I have been receiving. I have tried many of the things mentioned but just don't seem to have the level of skill needed for me to do quality work that would do this antique justice.
Cheers
Moe
Thanks for all the advice I have been receiving. I have tried many of the things mentioned but just don't seem to have the level of skill needed for me to do quality work that would do this antique justice.
Cheers
Moe
I added a small footnote on my last post and want to add this here so you don't miss it: if you are going to have your revolver and yourself in the U.S. at the same time, the guy at River Junction "Old West Grips" has the rubber grips AND he can do the fitting. Now, he's in Iowa, but he'd be a good choice if you can make it happen.
Another thing I'd like to add is this: the rubber grips seem to have a thinner circumference than the wooden 1-piece grips the Pietta came with. While I absolutely love the look of the gun in rubbers, the wooden grips -- being a bit fatter -- definitely provide more "cushion" when firing the original load of a 255 grain 454190 bullet over 40 grains of FFFg Goex than the rubbers do. I mean, it gets painful having that backstrap slap into the palm bone after a dozen shots or so of the "Wild West" load. The recoil doesn't bother me a bit with full power smokeless loads of Unique (which give me 930 - 950 fps with the same bullet). Getting that 255 grain bullet up to 940 fps using blackpowder, on the other hand, is a thrill. One would not want to touch-off one of those in a dim, candle-lit cantina unless one really had to!
My pal Vishal finds out after shooting off a box of smokeless .45 Colt that the old 40-grain Black Powder load's recoil is a whole 'nuther thing.... . Especially with those rubber grips on the gun.
My pal Vishal finds out after shooting off a box of smokeless .45 Colt that the old 40-grain Black Powder load's recoil is a whole 'nuther thing.... . Especially with those rubber grips on the gun.
Thanks. I don't plan to bring the gun with me but would send it down once back. Knowing that guy can do the fitting I will consider sending to him. Will get back to you if I have any questions.
Cheers
Moe
Yes, I will help you if I can. I myself am thinking on getting Vintage grips to send me a set of rubber stocks without the Mexican Eagle. I know it means paying the costs and taking the chance of having a non-fit, but I'm thinking on actually sending my "Mexican Eagle" grips back and asking him to match them with a set of the non-Eagle grips.
"Why?" you ask? Well, my Pietta is the post-1892 style frame and by that time, most of the rubber grips leaving the Colt plant did not have the Eagle. Also (laugh at me if you will) the Peacemaker that Gian Maria Volante used in "For a Few Dollars More" would be a close match for mine if I just switched out those grips. Yes, I know it's a bit of a kinda useless fetish, but I want me Peacemaker to look like Indio's. So I might just do that.
Good luck on yours.
If yours is in 45 Colt or 44-40 it's exactly sorta what I'm looking for -- but down in Mexico. 192,000 is the cut-off serial number between Black Powder and Smokeless frames, although I'd take either in good condition. Mexico is chock full of Colt SAA revolvers as it was the sidearm of the Mexican Revolution. They are also prohibited because of caliber, generally. You might sneak a 38 WCF through the registration process, but the rest won't do. However, they're all still there. Sitting on mantlepieces or in China cabinets. My wife's great-grandfather shot a man off his horse during the Revolution when one of the Revolutionary groups came to take his farm. Instant death, according to the accounts: but where is the firearm? I suggest it was a Peacemaker, because of the "instant death", but who knows? I'd love to find it. Or any reasonable facsimile. The Revolution was 1910 - 1920 period (Pancho Villa -- played by Antonio Banderas -- was killed a block from my Ice Cream Store. In real life, Doroteo Arrango died in Parral de Hidalgo, but I love to claim that it was a block from my store and I watched it all six takes).
I found a 4 3/4 inch 45 Colt, which tickled my fancy and I might still be able to get it. It belongs to Eduardo Valseca -- the man who was kidnapped from San Miguel that they made the movie about -- but that's another long story.
I'd love to see a photo of yours if you care to post it. Perhaps, if your grips are just worn but undamaged, you should leave it as-is. Unless you know it's history, you don't know it's history. Any Mexican Colt from 1893 quite probably saw action. Finding one with nice chambers and an decent barrel is iffy, because they would have been used with a lot of black powder ammo and corrosive priming, but water cleaned them and properly cared for they are out there.
I covet one for me. But down in Mexico, not here where some twit can render them valueless at his pansy whim.
I believe Pancho Villa used a Bisley framed Colt? At least, some of the pictures of him has him displaying a Bisley grip holstered revolver.
I did not know that. I found a Bisley in San Miguel -- or better, one of my friends did -- and we looked it over. I took a photo or two of it somewhere, it's just not on my Imgur. If you're interested I'll look for it. It was a 1907 or 1908 manufacture, in 38 WCF. Had it been a Peacemaker, we'd have been all over it. Perhaps I should have grabbed it, but the chamber mouths were like .407 - .408 dia. and the bore was .400. Good mechanical shape, no rust in chambers or bore. But it was a Bisley. To me, they are ugly. I don't care what Mike Harvey says.
I am not an expert on Pancho Villa, but Banderas filmed "Once Upon a Time in Mexico" in San Miguel (actually, Roberto Rodriguez filmed it) and later Pancho Villa also. He was a regular in my Ice Cream store during both films. But a lot of people were. Banderas was shorter than me, and thinner because I tried to put on his Desperado jacket and it did not fit. He was smiling as I tried to squeeze into it. His wife, Melanie, got into a spat trying to rent a movie (2003, there was still a Blockbuster) next door so they called me to settle it. I gave her my Blockbuster Card as hers was U.S. and they would not accept it. They wanted her to sign the receipt for the movie and she asked me "shouldn't you sign it?" to which I replied "they just want your autograph, Ma'am." Banderas speaks Spanish, but she does not. In my family, we speak Spanish at home, not English. I guess in their's it's the other way around.
That Bisley with the grip frame from a Pietta .44 1858 Navy attached to "see if it would fit". But we didn't buy the Bisley.
Filming "Once Upon a Time in Mexico" right in front of my Ice Cream Store. 2003.
She sorta smiled and said: "What should I do?" I told her, "give it to them." I told her, when she returned the movie, if she had any problem to just come and get me in the Ice Cream Store. I guess all went well because I heard no more about it. I'm a Don Johnson fan, but talking to her was the closest I've come to a connection with him.
There is a restaurant in the center square of San Miguel de Allende, called "Pueblo Viejo" that has some photos of Pancho Villa (Doroteo Arrango was his real name) and some artifacts from the time up on the wall. The waiters used to "quiz" me on Pancho Villa lore, so I'd try to read up on him so I didn't look like a total boob but I think they just liked playing with me. I was in Pueblo Viejo with my wife last April and the same waiters were teasing me on my "horrific" knowledge of Revolution History. After they left our table, I whispered to my wife: "I know more about the guns used in that Revolution than they do. Don't worry about that."
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I don't know it's history. It has 6 notches cut into one grip at the bottom but many folks did that kind of tin horn BS. I don't know what it's original caliber was. Being built in 1893 it was not in the 38 Special she is now. The cylinder and barrel were replaced by Colt with Colt parts. Probably in the 1950's A common change carried out by Colt at that time. The grips are original like I said but are well worn. As a collector gun she does not have any value now from the caliber change but she is special to me and my wife.
A couple years ago we were talking about our upcoming 25th wedding anniversary. Covid had shut down travel and we were scratching our head for a nice gift to each other. She is an avid shooter (why I hooked up with her in the first place). We were watching a western a couple months before our 25th and out of the blue I said why not a pair of consecutive numbered SAA's. She said let her think about it. A couple hours later she came to my office and said she put some thought to it and that she would rather us get an antique Colt one. I have several Webley, Dutch, French antiques and she knows what the deal is regarding the law and the price. She choked at the price of an antique Colt SAA is but she had a good reasons to pursue it. 1. It would have been a gun from the era and 2. regardless of what happens in Ottawa, we would never have to give it up.
Well you can't argue with her on those points so I started shopping. In 2020 there were not too many on the market but we moved on this one. Very glad we did.
Cheers
Moe
Attachments
Beauty! Again: unless those grips are damaged somehow, I'd keep them if they're just worn. All the old rubber grips are worn. You may want a cheap set of Vintage Grips to "preserve" those originals, and that's something I might do now that I think about it. I think the Vintage Grips in the style you want are 40.00 U.S. .
The Colt I know of -- the one Eduardo Valseca has (or it's on his ranch, he's living in the U.S. since he survived his kidnapping) -- was made in 1886. It has 1-piece wooden stocks that are chipped and worn but original I think, a 4 3/4 inch barrel with the half-moon ejector rod. This is not incorrect as the half-moon ejectors came out around 1881 or 1882. I think they ran concurrent with the full-moon type for a bit and then became predominent as they didn't hang up in the Military holsters of the day. The finish is much more worn than yours, basically it's grey. And it's in 45 Colt.
I'd love to get it and fix the few little flaws it has (broken bolt/sear spring, broken hand spring) and give it a new home. The 45 Colt is a real manstopper, which is what I desire for around my property in rural Guanajuato. Either 44-40 or 45 Colt will do but the 45 Colt is king of the hill. Also, in black powder loads -- the only type that would be safe in an 1886 SAA -- there's not as much difference as one would think between the barrel lengths. Using the 40 grain load of Goex FFFg and a 255 grain bullet, my 7.5 inch Pietta gives me about 940 fps but my wife's 4 3/4 incher gives me 910 fps. That's not enough to cry about. With 8.3 grains of Unique and the same bullet my Cavalry barrel gives me 950 fps and my wife's only 880. So a much more noticeable difference with smokeless.
But yours has a charm to it. It's in much nicer shape than Eduardo's, that's for sure (although his barrel and chambers were "clean"). We'll see what you decide to do I guess. If you do decide to try to fit new rubbers yourself, I'd order 1st Generation grips from Vintage grips and send them a couple of good grip tracings of the grips you have. I think the SKU numbers you'd be chosing from would be 3557G/7198/7811 on their website. It's vintagegungrips.com.
The Colt I know of -- the one Eduardo Valseca has (or it's on his ranch, he's living in the U.S. since he survived his kidnapping) -- was made in 1886. It has 1-piece wooden stocks that are chipped and worn but original I think, a 4 3/4 inch barrel with the half-moon ejector rod. This is not incorrect as the half-moon ejectors came out around 1881 or 1882. I think they ran concurrent with the full-moon type for a bit and then became predominent as they didn't hang up in the Military holsters of the day. The finish is much more worn than yours, basically it's grey. And it's in 45 Colt.
I'd love to get it and fix the few little flaws it has (broken bolt/sear spring, broken hand spring) and give it a new home. The 45 Colt is a real manstopper, which is what I desire for around my property in rural Guanajuato. Either 44-40 or 45 Colt will do but the 45 Colt is king of the hill. Also, in black powder loads -- the only type that would be safe in an 1886 SAA -- there's not as much difference as one would think between the barrel lengths. Using the 40 grain load of Goex FFFg and a 255 grain bullet, my 7.5 inch Pietta gives me about 940 fps but my wife's 4 3/4 incher gives me 910 fps. That's not enough to cry about. With 8.3 grains of Unique and the same bullet my Cavalry barrel gives me 950 fps and my wife's only 880. So a much more noticeable difference with smokeless.
But yours has a charm to it. It's in much nicer shape than Eduardo's, that's for sure (although his barrel and chambers were "clean"). We'll see what you decide to do I guess. If you do decide to try to fit new rubbers yourself, I'd order 1st Generation grips from Vintage grips and send them a couple of good grip tracings of the grips you have. I think the SKU numbers you'd be chosing from would be 3557G/7198/7811 on their website. It's vintagegungrips.com.
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Thanks calmex. I did find the grips on ebay for a bit more than that but I like the idea of sending a tracing of the original grips. Very grateful for the info you researched for us. My original grips are not cracked at all and if I do replace them I have no plan of tossing them as they are the original.
I think you should pursue that gun of Eduardo Valseca. The story alone is worth the investment.
Cheers
Moe
I think you should pursue that gun of Eduardo Valseca. The story alone is worth the investment.
Cheers
Moe
Shortly after he was kidnapped, his wife (quite pretty) and her group of friends held a 'belly dancing party' at one of their rather large homes out on his ranch. Friends of mine and myself went to that party as -- well -- body guards for her and her kids. We are all armed, although concealed, and dressed up like Arab princes. Well, except for Allen, of course. He went in Leather Biker dress. I would post photos, but it would detract from your excellent thread. It was at that party that his wife showed me the Peacemaker and asked me if she should sell it. I told her "no", let me restore it. She put it away, and then all the events that followed happened. That Peacemaker is still sitting there in that cabinet and I know where it is. She died over the stress from the incident but friends of mine are still in loose contact with Eduardo. I agree. I should try to get it.
While you are sitting there worrying about fitting some rubber grips, I am sitting here researching color-case-hardening and checking with the Custom Shop in Queretero as to whether they can get me 1400 F. in an oven to re-caseharden that frame. Yes, yes, I know it's an 1886 original, but I would restore it. It only has real collector value on the U.S. market and it won't be headed there if I get it.
Two days before he was kidnapped, my right-hand-man in running San Miguel/Queretero IPSC told Eduardo that he and his wife should arm themselves and that the unregistered Browning Hi-Power and S&W Model 37 airweight that they already owned would do nicely until we could get them registered in the Club and permits. He refused, even though he was living on a rural property and nobody would have cared. Two days later, they grabbed him on a dirt road only a few city blocks from his ranch house. When those San Miguel gunclub guys tell you that you should do something, you should probably listen. But a lot of people don't sometimes. And his kidnappers were armed with one old Victory Model .38 and some hammers and an axe. That Hi-Power would have shot them up just fine.
Many Canadians of my acquaintance find me rough around the edges and tell me I'm a bit heartless but they've never been anywhere and have never seen anything. They'd get over that pretty quick if they got out and about a bit.
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Please feel free to post those pics here. I really enjoy reading many of the posts you put up and don't take offense at all to you posting some pics and stories here.
I would research very carefully what needs to be done to re-case harden the frame. I believe until the 1890's Colt frames were actually iron and not steel.
Ironically I owned a Browning Hi-Power, am issued one at work, and I do own a Lend Lease S&W Victory 38S&W (38-200).
Cheers
Moe
If you just google JosĂ© GarcĂa Valseca, you'll find quite a bit of information just pops up about the kidnapping of the son (same name) as well as his father who was a Colonel in the Mexican Revolution and later a Press Baron who owned -- and then lost -- and entire newspaper chain throughout Mexico. Apparently, "daddy" was a fairly ruthless type although I never met him. The Peacemaker from 1886 belonged to "daddy's" father, or Eduardo junior's great-grandfather. Obviously I certainly knew little about the great-grandfather except that he was supposedly a Mexican Army General: but does that mean a real general? Or just one who bought the rank through family wealth? I do not know too much about that, except by stuff I've been told which could be purely apocryphal for all I know.
My best friend at the time was/is a Canadian self-employed businessman who works with Art Galleries. His Mexican wife gained early fame in the Gun Club after an incident where she fired a shot from her 2.5-inch Model 19 (full power load) through her open passenger window at a car of young toughs trying to get her to pull over while driving her kids to school, who had pulled up alongside -- the right side -- of her car to force her to stop. Her shot through the window after advising the kids in the back seat to "cover your ears, darlings..." became Gun Club lore. The fact that the bullet went into the door padding about an inch below the window and through the glass of the rolled down window and ended up dimpling the door metal on the far side without penetrating (but the Lee 160 grain TL cast bullet expanded a bit on the nose) was/is constantly glossed over with admiration for her sangfroid in the moment. She became somewhat of a San Miguel Gun Club icon. Oh, the bad guys were so shocked they swerved a bit and ended up in the ditch. Wife and kids got away and after that, my friend drove the kids to school every day, much better armed, but the incident seemed to end there.
My friend's wife on the range, after her shot into the car door. Colonel Phil Maher, the U.S. Consul, absolutely doted on her. Maher shot and killed a human-bomb Japanese sapper running at him by using a trench gun on Iwo Jima during the "last banzai charge", killing him before he could detonate himself, and was not a man easily impressed. That's Maher with his arm around her, his 669 on slidelock. To her left is the Doc, a former Mayor of San Miguel. To her right is Aurelio, the Club's fulltime conspiracy theorist and general doom-sayer. Most of the Club's women and wives hated her, feeling her thrust into fame over just a few seconds of danger was way over-rated. My wife can't stand her. But she did do what she did do and the kids backed her up on the day with wild-eyed excitement that sure seemed real. We were all impressed.
Anyway, my friend and his wife ended up like 2 days before the kidnapping at a big dinner thrown by Eduardo and his wife Jayne. Because my friend's wife already had become somewhat notorious around town for her full-power .357 Magnum snubby shot into the passenger door, the topic of guns came up. When Eduardo mentioned he had a rather threatening neighbour on the adjoining ranch who was a known Drug mafioso from up North, the suggestion was made that Eduardo and Jayne should arm themselves. This was where the conversation about using the Browning and S&W Snubby came up and a promise was made to bring me out to give some shooting lessons to both Eduardo and his wife. The bad guys grabbed Eduardo before these "shooting lessons" ever transpired and in fact, I was unaware the offer had been made until after the kidnapping when suddenly myself -- and the rest of the Gun Club -- were quickly "brought up to speed."
I went out with my two friends and met Jayne and her kids. Since at the time (though since proven wrong), popular thought was that Eduardo had been grabbed by the Drug Mafioso neighbour, I suggested that Jayne and the kids -- who were teenyboppers -- learn to shoot and stay armed while at the ranch. So I started teaching them on the guns they had: a Hi-Power with the adjustable sight, a Model 37 S&W airweight and a Model 66 4-inch. All these guns were not registered. Jayne mentioned that they had an old Peacemaker that had been Eduardo's grandfather's, and that she would show me sometime but it was at "the other house".
Around that time, the Federal Police were assigned to guard the house and Jayne's family. They tapped all the phones, they read all the mail and were generally underfoot. She did not trust them. She asked me if I would take over her security. I told her that "I have a store to run" and that she was now a part of an international show that powerful forces -- the San Miguel Police, City Hall, the Federal Police, the State Police, ad nauseum -- were all going to make sure they got a chunk of and poor little ol' me wouldn't survive trying to stick my finger into that pie. I would teach her and the kids to shoot: I could get away with that. Otherwise, lock the bedroom doors when they sleep at night and leave the agents outside to their business.
About a month later, she had a big bellydance party and invited all the rich gringos in the area to "chip in" to help pay the hefty ransom that was being demanded for Eduardo's release. Jayne asked if me and some of the gun club people could come for "security" and that they were doing it in "the other house", away from where all the Feds were staked out. (I should point out, I have never seen the movie. So I don't know if any of this was documented or not. As my Dad said about the Normandy movies, "why would I see it? I was there.") Myself, my friend and his wife, and Allen (co-inventor of the .380 Cal idea) went and I think we had Jackie (Fernando Parrales) Chan and Gustavo from the Club as well. Allen went with the Biker look but most of us did the Arab Prince thing with guns under our jackets.
My best friend at the time was/is a Canadian self-employed businessman who works with Art Galleries. His Mexican wife gained early fame in the Gun Club after an incident where she fired a shot from her 2.5-inch Model 19 (full power load) through her open passenger window at a car of young toughs trying to get her to pull over while driving her kids to school, who had pulled up alongside -- the right side -- of her car to force her to stop. Her shot through the window after advising the kids in the back seat to "cover your ears, darlings..." became Gun Club lore. The fact that the bullet went into the door padding about an inch below the window and through the glass of the rolled down window and ended up dimpling the door metal on the far side without penetrating (but the Lee 160 grain TL cast bullet expanded a bit on the nose) was/is constantly glossed over with admiration for her sangfroid in the moment. She became somewhat of a San Miguel Gun Club icon. Oh, the bad guys were so shocked they swerved a bit and ended up in the ditch. Wife and kids got away and after that, my friend drove the kids to school every day, much better armed, but the incident seemed to end there.
My friend's wife on the range, after her shot into the car door. Colonel Phil Maher, the U.S. Consul, absolutely doted on her. Maher shot and killed a human-bomb Japanese sapper running at him by using a trench gun on Iwo Jima during the "last banzai charge", killing him before he could detonate himself, and was not a man easily impressed. That's Maher with his arm around her, his 669 on slidelock. To her left is the Doc, a former Mayor of San Miguel. To her right is Aurelio, the Club's fulltime conspiracy theorist and general doom-sayer. Most of the Club's women and wives hated her, feeling her thrust into fame over just a few seconds of danger was way over-rated. My wife can't stand her. But she did do what she did do and the kids backed her up on the day with wild-eyed excitement that sure seemed real. We were all impressed.
Anyway, my friend and his wife ended up like 2 days before the kidnapping at a big dinner thrown by Eduardo and his wife Jayne. Because my friend's wife already had become somewhat notorious around town for her full-power .357 Magnum snubby shot into the passenger door, the topic of guns came up. When Eduardo mentioned he had a rather threatening neighbour on the adjoining ranch who was a known Drug mafioso from up North, the suggestion was made that Eduardo and Jayne should arm themselves. This was where the conversation about using the Browning and S&W Snubby came up and a promise was made to bring me out to give some shooting lessons to both Eduardo and his wife. The bad guys grabbed Eduardo before these "shooting lessons" ever transpired and in fact, I was unaware the offer had been made until after the kidnapping when suddenly myself -- and the rest of the Gun Club -- were quickly "brought up to speed."
I went out with my two friends and met Jayne and her kids. Since at the time (though since proven wrong), popular thought was that Eduardo had been grabbed by the Drug Mafioso neighbour, I suggested that Jayne and the kids -- who were teenyboppers -- learn to shoot and stay armed while at the ranch. So I started teaching them on the guns they had: a Hi-Power with the adjustable sight, a Model 37 S&W airweight and a Model 66 4-inch. All these guns were not registered. Jayne mentioned that they had an old Peacemaker that had been Eduardo's grandfather's, and that she would show me sometime but it was at "the other house".
Around that time, the Federal Police were assigned to guard the house and Jayne's family. They tapped all the phones, they read all the mail and were generally underfoot. She did not trust them. She asked me if I would take over her security. I told her that "I have a store to run" and that she was now a part of an international show that powerful forces -- the San Miguel Police, City Hall, the Federal Police, the State Police, ad nauseum -- were all going to make sure they got a chunk of and poor little ol' me wouldn't survive trying to stick my finger into that pie. I would teach her and the kids to shoot: I could get away with that. Otherwise, lock the bedroom doors when they sleep at night and leave the agents outside to their business.
About a month later, she had a big bellydance party and invited all the rich gringos in the area to "chip in" to help pay the hefty ransom that was being demanded for Eduardo's release. Jayne asked if me and some of the gun club people could come for "security" and that they were doing it in "the other house", away from where all the Feds were staked out. (I should point out, I have never seen the movie. So I don't know if any of this was documented or not. As my Dad said about the Normandy movies, "why would I see it? I was there.") Myself, my friend and his wife, and Allen (co-inventor of the .380 Cal idea) went and I think we had Jackie (Fernando Parrales) Chan and Gustavo from the Club as well. Allen went with the Biker look but most of us did the Arab Prince thing with guns under our jackets.
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My friend's wife and I at the party.
My friend and I. Allen is just barely visible in the background behind my friend. My God, we had some good times!
I took this shot of Jayne myself. She was quite the looker actually.
Anyway, they had a good turn out and I was told they got a lot of committments from the "guests" to contribute to the ransom. I never asked "how much" or anything, I felt it was not my business nor did I feel I had the "need to know". There were half-a-dozen pretty girls doing the dancing, I really only kept the photos with Jayne in them.
There was a point where Jayne took a break from the dancing and beckoned me over. She told me to follow her, so I did. We left the main area of the house and entered an office, with a desk and some filing cabinets. She opened the cabinet and took out a box and inside was the old Peacemaker. She told me that this had belonged to Eduardo's grandfather. She asked if she could get any significant amount for it. I examined it, wrote down the serial number, and noted it's finish was a rough patina, sort of like the "Rooster Shooter" sold by Cimmaron Arms. The grips were chipped, one-piece wood. Probably original. There was a rust spot -- about the size of a person's small fingernail, on the right side of the inside of the barrel about 1-inch in front of the forcing cone. A similar rust spot, about the size of a thumbnail, was on the inside-outter-edge of one of the 6 cylinder holes. This one made be a bit queasy as it was just right about where the cylinder notch is -- and as you may know, on Peacemaker .45's the chamber walls under those cylinder notches are paper thin. The hand-spring was obviously broken, as was the bolt-stop/sear spring. Restoreable. But not worth much "as is" inside of Mexico. And I told her so. She returned the gun to it's box which she placed back in the filing cabinet, and we returned to the party to perhaps a few raised eye-brows but there shouldn't have been. I immediately filled in my friends about what I had seen, and we just made sure all went well with the rest of the night. However, everytime we bring up the topic of old Peacemakers laying around Mexico, this particular Peacemaker comes up. My friend and I ended up discussing it again earlier today. He has constant contact with one of the kids of Eduardo and Jayne who still inhabit the ranch -- and thus -- we still may have a line on that Peacemaker.
The Rooster Shooter by Cimmaron pretty much serves as an example of that 1886 Peacemaker I saw at Jayne's party. Just replace the Rooster stocks with some cracked and chipped one-piece wood stocks and there you have it. Oh, and change the cylinder basepin latch to a screw in front of the frame as well.
I realize that it will be an iron-framed gun. Still, the idea of restoring the casehardening comes and goes. I can replace the cylinder -- which I do believe would be unsafe to fire because of that VERY REDDISH BROWN rust spot immediately under the cylinder bolt stop. Perhaps if one plugged up that chamber as one's "safe chamber" and only shot Black Powder loads out of the other 5 it might hold up? I dunno. The barrel would probably be fine as it's much thicker and the rust spot was smaller -- but who knows? I went back once and got in and cleaned the gun as much as I could and bathed the internals with gun oil (not Ballistol unfortunately), but who knows? Cylinders and barrels can be bought (1st, 2nd or 3rd generation) from Peacemaker Specialists. I think for sure I'd get a new cylinder -- and Peacemaker Specialists will reline the chamber holes to .452 or .454 as you choose. An 1886 gun is probably a .454 bore, so .454 would do. The barrel might be fine. I'd be willing to shoot it to find out with the cylinder swapped out and using a 35-grain blackpowder, 255 grain bullet loading. Trying to redo the casehardening could wreck it. If I didn't have too much into it and it was otherwise functioning it's the kind of thing that would probably keep me awake nights agonizing over "to do or not to do?" In a way, I'm glad that after a lifetime of adventure what keeps me awake nights is silly crap like that.
On that Bisley I looked at, there were still traces of color casehardening from nearly 100 years earlier -- but it was a smokeless powder frame and made well after Peacemakers came in steel as well. If I had something like that -- and that's probably what I should be looking for -- I'd be happy to just leave things "as is". But Eduardo's old Colt sure makes me think "what if?" Here's the Bisley again. It's not a great photo but even here traces of the original color case can be seen up on the top of the frame near the barrel, in front of the cylinder.
As to that: I think if you, Moe, write Colt and pay a fee they'll be able to tell you what caliber your particular frame originally came it. I highly doubt it was .38 Special because of the year it was made but it might have been .38 Long Colt. Either way, you could fully restore it to original shape over time if you felt like you wanted to. But obviously, .38 Special is much more available than a lot of other calibers it might have been chambered in.
My best friend and I to this day, wandering the streets of San Miguel in March, 2022 and taking selfies of ourselves. Without the Arab garb and about 18 years later.
My friend and I. Allen is just barely visible in the background behind my friend. My God, we had some good times!
I took this shot of Jayne myself. She was quite the looker actually.
Anyway, they had a good turn out and I was told they got a lot of committments from the "guests" to contribute to the ransom. I never asked "how much" or anything, I felt it was not my business nor did I feel I had the "need to know". There were half-a-dozen pretty girls doing the dancing, I really only kept the photos with Jayne in them.
There was a point where Jayne took a break from the dancing and beckoned me over. She told me to follow her, so I did. We left the main area of the house and entered an office, with a desk and some filing cabinets. She opened the cabinet and took out a box and inside was the old Peacemaker. She told me that this had belonged to Eduardo's grandfather. She asked if she could get any significant amount for it. I examined it, wrote down the serial number, and noted it's finish was a rough patina, sort of like the "Rooster Shooter" sold by Cimmaron Arms. The grips were chipped, one-piece wood. Probably original. There was a rust spot -- about the size of a person's small fingernail, on the right side of the inside of the barrel about 1-inch in front of the forcing cone. A similar rust spot, about the size of a thumbnail, was on the inside-outter-edge of one of the 6 cylinder holes. This one made be a bit queasy as it was just right about where the cylinder notch is -- and as you may know, on Peacemaker .45's the chamber walls under those cylinder notches are paper thin. The hand-spring was obviously broken, as was the bolt-stop/sear spring. Restoreable. But not worth much "as is" inside of Mexico. And I told her so. She returned the gun to it's box which she placed back in the filing cabinet, and we returned to the party to perhaps a few raised eye-brows but there shouldn't have been. I immediately filled in my friends about what I had seen, and we just made sure all went well with the rest of the night. However, everytime we bring up the topic of old Peacemakers laying around Mexico, this particular Peacemaker comes up. My friend and I ended up discussing it again earlier today. He has constant contact with one of the kids of Eduardo and Jayne who still inhabit the ranch -- and thus -- we still may have a line on that Peacemaker.
The Rooster Shooter by Cimmaron pretty much serves as an example of that 1886 Peacemaker I saw at Jayne's party. Just replace the Rooster stocks with some cracked and chipped one-piece wood stocks and there you have it. Oh, and change the cylinder basepin latch to a screw in front of the frame as well.
I realize that it will be an iron-framed gun. Still, the idea of restoring the casehardening comes and goes. I can replace the cylinder -- which I do believe would be unsafe to fire because of that VERY REDDISH BROWN rust spot immediately under the cylinder bolt stop. Perhaps if one plugged up that chamber as one's "safe chamber" and only shot Black Powder loads out of the other 5 it might hold up? I dunno. The barrel would probably be fine as it's much thicker and the rust spot was smaller -- but who knows? I went back once and got in and cleaned the gun as much as I could and bathed the internals with gun oil (not Ballistol unfortunately), but who knows? Cylinders and barrels can be bought (1st, 2nd or 3rd generation) from Peacemaker Specialists. I think for sure I'd get a new cylinder -- and Peacemaker Specialists will reline the chamber holes to .452 or .454 as you choose. An 1886 gun is probably a .454 bore, so .454 would do. The barrel might be fine. I'd be willing to shoot it to find out with the cylinder swapped out and using a 35-grain blackpowder, 255 grain bullet loading. Trying to redo the casehardening could wreck it. If I didn't have too much into it and it was otherwise functioning it's the kind of thing that would probably keep me awake nights agonizing over "to do or not to do?" In a way, I'm glad that after a lifetime of adventure what keeps me awake nights is silly crap like that.
On that Bisley I looked at, there were still traces of color casehardening from nearly 100 years earlier -- but it was a smokeless powder frame and made well after Peacemakers came in steel as well. If I had something like that -- and that's probably what I should be looking for -- I'd be happy to just leave things "as is". But Eduardo's old Colt sure makes me think "what if?" Here's the Bisley again. It's not a great photo but even here traces of the original color case can be seen up on the top of the frame near the barrel, in front of the cylinder.
As to that: I think if you, Moe, write Colt and pay a fee they'll be able to tell you what caliber your particular frame originally came it. I highly doubt it was .38 Special because of the year it was made but it might have been .38 Long Colt. Either way, you could fully restore it to original shape over time if you felt like you wanted to. But obviously, .38 Special is much more available than a lot of other calibers it might have been chambered in.
My best friend and I to this day, wandering the streets of San Miguel in March, 2022 and taking selfies of ourselves. Without the Arab garb and about 18 years later.
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I can't say enough how much I enjoy the rich history you share with us. Here and other threads. I think I am going to have to find that movie now that you roped me in on the story. When Jayne had you follow her to the office I thought that was going a different direction for a moment LOL. I took off the grips last night to look them over. As it turns out one was indeed cracked and repaired. I bit the bullet last night and ordered a set from the site you sent me. Thanks again. I was an aircraft technician for more than 20 years and you could always take that cylinder to a hangar for a tech to do some non destructive testing on it to see the condition of the metal under the surface. There are a variety of methods and they work great.
Cheers
Moe
Cheers
Moe
I have watched with much interest youtube videos on color casehardening. Okay, so I need a furnace capable of 1400 - 1450 degrees. I need an iron box, some charcoal (easily available in Mexico) and some tongs and a water bucket. I am not talking about doing this commercially, just a "one-time" deal. I do not need "perfect" results, I just need some results that show some color that don't screw up or warp the frame. Oh, and the hammer.
I forgot to mention that the hammer and firing pin on the 1886 SAA I saw was the old conical type, which would be correct to the date I think, as shown here in Jerry Kuhnhausen's Shop Manual on the SAA, page 82:
So I'd like to preserve that. I have read that those old conical firing pins were switched out around 1905 to the 2nd Generation design. Also, I read today that the switch from wrought iron to steel in the frames took place in 1883 but the guns were not "proofed" for smokeless by Colt until 1900. So Eduardo's gun would be above that 90,000 Serial Number range from 1883 but I do not remember the exact number. It is written in one of my "daily sales" books from my Ice Cream Store which are currently in a sealed plastic tote in my brother-in-law's warehouse in Salamanca, Gto. NOT quite on the backside of the moon, but close enough for now.
Here's a photo I took off the internet of that hammernose style:
So the frame and hammer (hammernose removed) would go into the iron box, be covered in charcoal and go into the "oven" and once the tempurature hits 1400 - 1450 degrees, they sit there for an hour. Then the iron box is removed using the tongs without burning the crap out of yourself and dumped into the water bucket. One's attempt at colorcase hardening is now finished for better or for worse.
My thoughts are that maybe by using one of these Mexican Clay Fireplace Pots that are ubiquitous in the area that I live:
I could get the tempurature up close to what I want, probably need a bellows, and just using a no-touch thermometer I'd have an idea of tempurature. Maybe? A poor-man's color casehardening set-up for a one-time deal? Obviously, I'd be much better off to just find a Colt about 20 - 25 years more modern and be done with it. But the attraction -- because of the backstory to me personally -- is certainly there. Of course, I can always look around down there for a suitable oven as well.
I am sure that the few instances where Jayne and I were alone were open to controversy and thus, at the time, I tried to make sure they were minimized and short in duration. When I went to teach shooting lessons to her and her kids I made sure I had a Gun Club member with me. I had not known her before the kidnapping and what I met was an educated and fluent in Spanish American woman who was under great stress and surrounded by wolves wearing the faces of Federal Police, National and International Media, with a looming threat of a dangerous next-door neighbour who was (falsely) believed to be responsible, and the entire San Miguel de Allende City Hall media mechanism freaking out about the negative publicity and more worried about local housing prices than they were about getting her husband back. Oh, and yes, she was very pretty. I minded my "P's" and "Q's", and made sure there would be no reasonable criticism levelled by anyone who was there. Anyone who was not "there" doesn't get a vote. When my best friend called me up and said "I have bad news..." I had no clue what he would report but San Miguel and Central Guanajuato is a hotbed of intrigue and the SMA Gun Club was always sticking their noses into that intrigue so it could be anything. But I'm sure, when he told me that Jayne's breast cancer had come back and claimed her as a result of all the stress from the entire incident, that I grimaced. One expects casualties, of course, but one always hopes that they're amongst the Shiney Ponies and Fat Clowns, not the pretty damsels. I remember her as a pretty woman who's "come hither" look was one of trust and certainty that I was one of the few people around her that wasn't trying to screw with her.
I cannot speak to the quality of the movie, I am sure it will be Hollywoodized. Since I knew the people personally and I know what happened (even details that were never released) I would probably find the theatrical respresentation of who they were and what they went through painful. My friend Allen -- co-inventor of the .380 Cal concept -- who I have described as someone reminding me of young Russell in the movie "Up", constantly getting poor, old Mr. Frederickson (me) into new unexpected dangers -- was working with the San Miguel Police Chief at the time in switching from the CZ-75BD to the Glock 17. Since I got dragged along on that project, I got constant updates from the "Chief" himself on the state of the Eduardo investigation from the point of view of the SMAGTO Muncipal Police. Another "Jesus, Allen, what have you gotten me into?" situation that all these years later, I have to admit, allows me to put puzzle-pieces into place that otherwise would have remained permanent unknowns.
The San Miguel Police Chief at the time (sunglasses on forehead) looks on as a Police Commander explains the concept of the new Glock 17's that had just arrived to the Police Department Chief of Staff. Allen's backside can be seen leaning into the pickup truck where he was feverishly unboxing more Glocks that he had agreed with the Chief that the department needed to purchase to replace the CZ-75BD. I (personally) did not agree and preferred the CZ-75BD because the officers were allowed to carry it "hammer down" on a live round whereas the Glocks had to be carried in Condition 3, empty chamber, by the rules of the municipality. (Cocked and locked 1911/A1 .38 Supers: ALLOWED! Glocks: NOT ALLOWED! Rules written by a committee of civilians and lawyers.) It was funny (to me, anyway) that after the switch there were not enough Glocks to go around so some officers stayed with the CZ-75BD. One of them was the Chief. He was receiving death threats throughout the "Eduardo incident" and had been told to STAND DOWN any investigation on his part which he quietly refused to do and once asked me my opinion on arming himself. I had a Fobus clip-on/clip-off Polymer holster for the CZ-75 and I brought it to him and said: "Me? I'd put on a CZ-75 and never take it off except to set it on my nightstand at night. Oh, and here, load it with these." I gave him a box of CCI Gold Dots loaded in 9mm cases to about 1,175 fps. Everytime I saw the Chief after that -- and this was quite a few times -- he had his CZ in that Fobus holster and a couple of spare mags on him. Ha, ha, Allen, take that! The Chief listened to me.
I forgot to mention that the hammer and firing pin on the 1886 SAA I saw was the old conical type, which would be correct to the date I think, as shown here in Jerry Kuhnhausen's Shop Manual on the SAA, page 82:
So I'd like to preserve that. I have read that those old conical firing pins were switched out around 1905 to the 2nd Generation design. Also, I read today that the switch from wrought iron to steel in the frames took place in 1883 but the guns were not "proofed" for smokeless by Colt until 1900. So Eduardo's gun would be above that 90,000 Serial Number range from 1883 but I do not remember the exact number. It is written in one of my "daily sales" books from my Ice Cream Store which are currently in a sealed plastic tote in my brother-in-law's warehouse in Salamanca, Gto. NOT quite on the backside of the moon, but close enough for now.
Here's a photo I took off the internet of that hammernose style:
So the frame and hammer (hammernose removed) would go into the iron box, be covered in charcoal and go into the "oven" and once the tempurature hits 1400 - 1450 degrees, they sit there for an hour. Then the iron box is removed using the tongs without burning the crap out of yourself and dumped into the water bucket. One's attempt at colorcase hardening is now finished for better or for worse.
My thoughts are that maybe by using one of these Mexican Clay Fireplace Pots that are ubiquitous in the area that I live:
I could get the tempurature up close to what I want, probably need a bellows, and just using a no-touch thermometer I'd have an idea of tempurature. Maybe? A poor-man's color casehardening set-up for a one-time deal? Obviously, I'd be much better off to just find a Colt about 20 - 25 years more modern and be done with it. But the attraction -- because of the backstory to me personally -- is certainly there. Of course, I can always look around down there for a suitable oven as well.
I am sure that the few instances where Jayne and I were alone were open to controversy and thus, at the time, I tried to make sure they were minimized and short in duration. When I went to teach shooting lessons to her and her kids I made sure I had a Gun Club member with me. I had not known her before the kidnapping and what I met was an educated and fluent in Spanish American woman who was under great stress and surrounded by wolves wearing the faces of Federal Police, National and International Media, with a looming threat of a dangerous next-door neighbour who was (falsely) believed to be responsible, and the entire San Miguel de Allende City Hall media mechanism freaking out about the negative publicity and more worried about local housing prices than they were about getting her husband back. Oh, and yes, she was very pretty. I minded my "P's" and "Q's", and made sure there would be no reasonable criticism levelled by anyone who was there. Anyone who was not "there" doesn't get a vote. When my best friend called me up and said "I have bad news..." I had no clue what he would report but San Miguel and Central Guanajuato is a hotbed of intrigue and the SMA Gun Club was always sticking their noses into that intrigue so it could be anything. But I'm sure, when he told me that Jayne's breast cancer had come back and claimed her as a result of all the stress from the entire incident, that I grimaced. One expects casualties, of course, but one always hopes that they're amongst the Shiney Ponies and Fat Clowns, not the pretty damsels. I remember her as a pretty woman who's "come hither" look was one of trust and certainty that I was one of the few people around her that wasn't trying to screw with her.
I cannot speak to the quality of the movie, I am sure it will be Hollywoodized. Since I knew the people personally and I know what happened (even details that were never released) I would probably find the theatrical respresentation of who they were and what they went through painful. My friend Allen -- co-inventor of the .380 Cal concept -- who I have described as someone reminding me of young Russell in the movie "Up", constantly getting poor, old Mr. Frederickson (me) into new unexpected dangers -- was working with the San Miguel Police Chief at the time in switching from the CZ-75BD to the Glock 17. Since I got dragged along on that project, I got constant updates from the "Chief" himself on the state of the Eduardo investigation from the point of view of the SMAGTO Muncipal Police. Another "Jesus, Allen, what have you gotten me into?" situation that all these years later, I have to admit, allows me to put puzzle-pieces into place that otherwise would have remained permanent unknowns.
The San Miguel Police Chief at the time (sunglasses on forehead) looks on as a Police Commander explains the concept of the new Glock 17's that had just arrived to the Police Department Chief of Staff. Allen's backside can be seen leaning into the pickup truck where he was feverishly unboxing more Glocks that he had agreed with the Chief that the department needed to purchase to replace the CZ-75BD. I (personally) did not agree and preferred the CZ-75BD because the officers were allowed to carry it "hammer down" on a live round whereas the Glocks had to be carried in Condition 3, empty chamber, by the rules of the municipality. (Cocked and locked 1911/A1 .38 Supers: ALLOWED! Glocks: NOT ALLOWED! Rules written by a committee of civilians and lawyers.) It was funny (to me, anyway) that after the switch there were not enough Glocks to go around so some officers stayed with the CZ-75BD. One of them was the Chief. He was receiving death threats throughout the "Eduardo incident" and had been told to STAND DOWN any investigation on his part which he quietly refused to do and once asked me my opinion on arming himself. I had a Fobus clip-on/clip-off Polymer holster for the CZ-75 and I brought it to him and said: "Me? I'd put on a CZ-75 and never take it off except to set it on my nightstand at night. Oh, and here, load it with these." I gave him a box of CCI Gold Dots loaded in 9mm cases to about 1,175 fps. Everytime I saw the Chief after that -- and this was quite a few times -- he had his CZ in that Fobus holster and a couple of spare mags on him. Ha, ha, Allen, take that! The Chief listened to me.
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