Accuracy

[Ar180shooter]

MOA at 100 yards? I seriously doubt it. Even high end bullseye-grade guns like Sig P210 and Les Baer do worse than MOA at 50 yards (let alone 100 yards).

A very high end or custom made revolver in a vise using match ammo could. The Les Baer (I'm assuming 1911) and Sig P210 are both semis, and are fantastically accurate... but revolvers (like bolt action rifles), by the virtue of their design, have the ability to be more accurate than semis.

 

[coldblood]

Most factory ammo is pretty decent. I'd say it's more a case of one bullet weight and shape perhaps not biting into the rifling the best. For example I found that for my own 9mm shooting that my CZ consistently does slightly tighter groups when shooting round nose 125gn lead rounds instead of my usual 125gn jacketed. It's not a big difference but I shot enough of it to see the groups go from about 3 inches at 15'ish yards down to around 2.5 inches with a tighter concentration around the middle than on the jacketed rounds.

Coldblooded, you'r 7 inch groups at 25 isn't shabby at all. As you're finding out shooting a handgun well is not that easy. First there's the need to mentally separate your mind from the recoil that you know is coming. Then there's the need to achieve a stable and consistent hand grip and trigger pull where you only move the trigger finger and do it the same way each time. On top of this if you have old guy vision and old guy nerves like the more "mature" shooters such as myself just seeing the darn target at 25 yards is a feat to smile about.

I wouldn't call one round a second "rapid firing" either. It's not Olympic slow and deliberate but there's pleanty of time at one a second to get your sights aligned in fine style. And if they are set then there's no point in waiting and letting your arms get wobbly.

Hehe, I ain't an old guy. I am one crazy woman with pretty good sight, lol. But seriously, I agree. I think my technique leaves much to be desired.

 

[coldblood]

You have touched on an interesting point. Shooting better when faster is a real tell tale sign IMHO. When shooting fast you are shutting off conscious thought and relying on sub concious training. This is why you don't know why you did better. The more you concentrate the more you get in your own way. You start to think "don't screw up" instead of just touching off a good shot. This tells me more practice and good habits are already there. They just need to be refined. Shutting your mind off is difficult. Even more so when you have lots of time to fill on the line. Add in some people watching and it gets worse. It is when you are in the "zone" where all the internal and external distractions melt away.

Great post, tictactician! In my case, I am always in "my zone". When I shoot - nothing else exists. That's why I enjoy doing it so much. However, I have enough "baggage" in my own zone that prevents me to truly free my mind, lol. I need to work on it to achieve that pure "zen" state that you guys are talking about.

 

[coldblood]

The OP said "I shoot commercial 9mm 124gr ammo (same brand all the time)."

I shoot many different handguns and do a load test for each, using 0.3 gr increments of 4 different powders. It never ceases to amaze me how a gun can shoot so bad with one load and so much better with another. If you do not reload than you should at least try different brands and different weight bullets.

if you only shoot one load you don't really know what you and the gun are capable of. These targets are shot at 20 yards using a two-handed grips, un-rested.

My revlovers will shoot under 2", easily. Semi-autos are around 4". With a Ransom rest I am assuming the fliers would disappear and the groups would shrink at least by half.

Those are some nice looking targets right there.

I tried different brands of 9mm before: AE FMJ 115/124/147, Winchester BEB 124/147, Remington UMC 124/147, Blaser Brass 124 gr FMJ. The best groups and absolutely zero FTF/FTE I have got with Blaser Brass 9mm 124 gr FMJ. That's why I shoot this ammo almost exclusively.

 

[enefgee]

The best way I can put it is this, if you want a $3500 Les Baer 1911 to be guaranteed to shoot 1 1/2 at 50m, you'll need to pay extra. Lots of pistol shooters (myself included) would be pretty impressed by someone who could empty a full mag from a service type pistol into a 3x5 card at 25m firing 1 round per second, on demand. As the old line says, it's not what you did once, it's what you can do on demand. The closest handgun I have to this standard is a Charlton PPC gun, from a rest I believe it would shoot 1 inch at 25 yards, using the correct load. You have to remember though that this gun is actually designed around 1 bullet (weight AND style) and 1 brand of primer and is hand assembled from oversize parts fitted together at minimum tolerance.

 

[Jahred.F]

A very high end or custom made revolver in a vise using match ammo could. The Les Baer (I'm assuming 1911) and Sig P210 are both semis, and are fantastically accurate... but revolvers (like bolt action rifles), by the virtue of their design, have the ability to be more accurate than semis.

Bare in mind that revolvers have a their short comings also, like having to fire from multiple chambers, instead of one chamber.

 

[coldblood]

The best way I can put it is this, if you want a $3500 Les Baer 1911 to be guaranteed to shoot 1 1/2 at 50m, you'll need to pay extra. Lots of pistol shooters (myself included) would be pretty impressed by someone who could empty a full mag from a service type pistol into a 3x5 card at 25m firing 1 round per second, on demand. As the old line says, it's not what you did once, it's what you can do on demand. The closest handgun I have to this standard is a Charlton PPC gun, from a rest I believe it would shoot 1 inch at 25 yards, using the correct load. You have to remember though that this gun is actually designed around 1 bullet (weight AND style) and 1 brand of primer and is hand assembled from oversize parts fitted together at minimum tolerance.

That's exactly was part of my original question. According to what you say - it is possible to achieve, correct? If I know - it's possible and that my gun is capable to do it in right hands then all I need is to improve my technique and practice until I achieve that kind of consistent shooting (on my demand, lol, not for showing off )

I can only say after this absolutely helpful discussion (thank you all one more time!!!) that shooter can rarely outgrow the gun. There is always room for improvement even with the most accurate and expensive gun. It's just with really accurate and capable gun you don't may be need to work that hard.

Cheers!

 

[enefgee]

Here's a site that'll put you on the right road to developing the skills you're looking for

w w w.pistol-training dot com

The site has a drills section that can help shooters at every level.

Oh yes, reload - it won't save you money but you will be able to shoot four or five times the number of rounds for the same price.

 

[coldblood]

Here's a site that'll put you on the right road to developing the skills you're looking for

w w w.pistol-training dot com

The site has a drills section that can help shooters at every level.

Oh yes, reload - it won't save you money but you will be able to shoot four or five times the number of rounds for the same price.

Thank you, enefgee! Good stuff!

As for reloading - may be when I will get older or retire and will have more time. I wish my life wasn't that hectic so I can afford a couple of hours to dedicate to reloading (+ time to learn+time to research+range time to tune the rounds). That's why I shoot commercial and don't compete. For now.

 

[Brutus]

As others have stated, there are purpose built match guns that can achieve one inch groups at 25 meters, but as for standard revolvers and semi-autos, I would say it would be extremely rare to find one capable of this. A two inch group off bags would be a good one, in my opinion. And as for shooting off bags or ransome rests, other than working up loads, why would you? Standing, unsupported, a three inch group is doing very well, for the average shooter.

From a 22 LR special match pistol built for 50 meter target shooting (ISSF)

This is the factory test target from my Hammerli, 10 shots at 50 meters, from a mechanical rest I believe, making a 3/4 inch big hole. I think all Hammerli handguns come with a test target. BTW, that's not my serial number, but the results are pretty near identical with mine.

I wish I kept my 25 yard pistol targets from last summer. With practice my best shooting was with a S&W 624 with 6.5 inch barrel, and a S&W 64 with a retro 6 inch barrel and target sights. I was very happy with six shot, 2.5 to 3 inch groups using a two handed, offhand hold.

 

[lejarretnoir]

I recently acquired a Drulov 70 Free pistol. This is an entry level 50 meter ISSF bolt action .22LR pistol. Sights are not the best and I was able to smooth out the trigger with a little stoning and polishing to 1.5 lbs. Just yesterday I was able to sand bag rest a 10 shot group slightly under an 1" @ 25 meters with Federal Champions ammo. At 50 meters around 2.5". Of course with superb match ammo it'd be tighter and a Ransom rest would cut them in half or better.

There was a time when my eyes were better and I could hold 2 to 3" offhand at 25 meters. Yesterday after 2 full days of practice and many years of not shooting pistol I was able to obtain a 5" 10shot group at 25 meters with bulk ammo, one handed free pistol stance. No doubt after many bricks and years more practice it will improve. There is much to be said about getting into the "zone". I always shoot my best when I arrive there.

Top Olympic 50 meter Free pistol shooters can hold 2" @ 50 meters. The single shot bolt/falling block style will give you the most accurate platforms.

 

[Meph]

As AR180bShooter said, there are some pistols capable of MOA at 100 yards.

The first and foremost are quality revolvers. A nice, tight revolver with a scope is often capable of exceptional accuracy. Many good revolvers, or decent revolvers that have been worked by a gunsmith and have had a load development are staggeringly accurate.
Second are the highest end semi automatics. The brand escapes my memory but I've seen 2k to 3k 1911s have an accuracy guarantee of under 1" at 50 yards with FIVE rounds.
There is the odd pistol that just happens to be damn accurate.

Last is the most obvious answer, Thompson single shot pistols are easily MOA.

REMEMBER, this is all "mechanical accuracy", where you take away the human element; being very often the main flaw in accurate shooting.

 

[Brutus]

I recently acquired a Drulov 70 Free pistol. This is an entry level 50 meter ISSF bolt action .22LR pistol. Sights are not the best and I was able to smooth out the trigger with a little stoning and polishing to 1.5 lbs. Just yesterday I was able to sand bag rest a 10 shot group slightly under an 1" @ 25 meters with Federal Champions ammo. At 50 meters around 2.5". Of course with superb match ammo it'd be tighter and a Ransom rest would cut them in half or better.

There was a time when my eyes were better and I could hold 2 to 3" offhand at 25 meters. Yesterday after 2 full days of practice and many years of not shooting pistol I was able to obtain a 5" 10shot group at 25 meters with bulk ammo, one handed free pistol stance. No doubt after many bricks and years more practice it will improve. There is much to be said about getting into the "zone". I always shoot my best when I arrive there.

Top Olympic 50 meter Free pistol shooters can hold 2" @ 50 meters. The single shot bolt/falling block style will give you the most accurate platforms.

That's impressive shooting friend!

 

[bsand]

7" at 25y is EXCELLENT shooting, for offhand, with a standard pistol that isn't specifically match or target oriented. This is WELL above what your average shooter can do with a standard handgun.

haha, this makes me feel ALOT better about my range trip today with the 45.

i have only ever shot a box of 9mm, maybe 300 22's a box of 45 before my trip today.

i shot 150 rounds today. after about 100 rounds i was able to get my ALL my shots 6.5 yards(about half way at a 17 yard indoor range) away on a 12" target. mostly within 10" i think.. the target is below.
i had multiple shots hit each other..

kind of an expensive trip out... but whatever