Advanced Reloading: 14.5x114

Curious as to why you chose 416 as a case material? I thing its cold working properties will yield poor results in neck forming

I would start with 70/30 cartridge brass. Alternately a good cold drawing grade of steel

If you have tool and die experience, making a set of cupping and drawing dies would yield excellent results

Also, if there is enough interest, we could bring in a few cases of 14.5x114. Although we would have to pull the bullets (likely)
 
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CanAm said:
Curious as to why you chose 416 as a case material? I thing its cold working properties will yield poor results in neck forming

I would start with 70/30 cartridge brass. Alternaatly a good cold drawing grade of steel

If you have tool and die experience, making a s et of cupping and drawing dies would yield excellent results
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When I called ATRS, I spoke with a gentleman that told me that's what their subcontractor used to make 14.5 or 20mm cases. If cold forming will result in cracks or otherwise poor results, we have torches that could get that steel hot for forming.

Would the 50 ton press be enough for cup and draw dies on 70/30 brass for a 14.5x114 case?
 
I agree with Canam.

I'm working with SS for living and I don't see how case made out of it can stand repeated stress.It's hard and brittle alloy unlike brass.

Straight wall case maybe,if done to exactly match chamber but bottleneck case?

(scratching head)
 
donor said:
I agree with Canam.

I'm working with SS for living and I don't see how case made out of it can stand repeated stress.It's hard and brittle alloy unlike brass.

Straight wall case maybe,if done to exactly match chamber but bottleneck case?

(scratching head)
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What alloy would you recommend? In any case, they'll be made to fit my chamber as well as possible.
 
You would need to experiment with materials. Even the big plants make hundreds of tests when changing materials to get it right.

I would start with 70/30 brass and a straight internal chamber, then increase capacity with a boring bar and 35 degree insert, or custom ground HSS tool bit, rather that forming the case neck.

There is no reason you need to have the same case capacity as the production cases, unless you are going to run full loads.
 
CanAm said:
You would need to experiment with materials. Even the big plants make hundreds of tests when changing materials to get it right.

I would start with 70/30 brass and a straight internal chamber, then increase capacity with a boring bar and 35 degree insert, or custom ground HSS tool bit, rather that forming the case neck.

There is no reason you need to have the same case capacity as the production cases, unless you are going to run full loads.
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I thought about that, but a 4.5" long 0.5" boring bar didn't sound like something that would cut well.

The 14.5 has a .586 neck and a case head diameter at the base of 1.069", so you'd have to use an even thinner boring bar with an insert that can reach on the inside to open the case up. If the inside case diameter was to be 0.800", the boring bar would need to be around 0.450" in diameter, 4.5" long, just to clean up the inside, with an insert or toolbit that would be extended gradually after each pass. To me, that's a very difficult machining situation, but I can try that too.

I'm still not sure about machining brass for a high pressure cartridge case. Please correct me if I am mistaken; I thought brass needed to be worked to function as cartridge brass, I thought machining it didn't impart the proper physical attributes that cartridge brass requires.
 
Kevin M. said:
Re the PTRS, got it from a friend on cgn. Cool freaking gun, but will be much cooler once it has ammo. Got a great deal on it, 3.5k all in.
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Would this have originaly been the one that came from the Royal Sportsman in BC around 2006? I still kick myself for not buying it and it came with ammunition for around the price you got yours for.
 
Meph said:
I thought about that, but a 4.5" long 0.5" boring bar didn't sound like something that would cut well.

The 14.5 has a .586 neck and a case head diameter at the base of 1.069", so you'd have to use an even thinner boring bar with an insert that can reach on the inside to open the case up. If the inside case diameter was to be 0.800", the boring bar would need to be around 0.450" in diameter, 4.5" long, just to clean up the inside, with an insert or toolbit that would be extended gradually after each pass. To me, that's a very difficult machining situation, but I can try that too.

I'm still not sure about machining brass for a high pressure cartridge case. Please correct me if I am mistaken; I thought brass needed to be worked to function as cartridge brass, I thought machining it didn't impart the proper physical attributes that cartridge brass requires.
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Might be easier to drill it close and then use a ground reamer/endmill to finish the inside.
 
zuke said:
Might be easier to drill it close and then use a ground reamer/endmill to finish the inside.
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I already have a carbide insert drill tool. The trouble is the bottleneck. The case is big on the inside, and gets narrow at the neck. You can't exactly fit tools to cut the inside to a larger size if they're larger than the neck's inside diameter, unless you make the case straight-walled on the inside, severely reducing case capacity.

There could be expanding tools that might work, with cutting edges that can be extended while the tool shaft is inside the case, then retracted to be removed from the case once the inside has been cut larger. I do have boring heads, but they don't retract the cutting bit whilst inside the part, they simply move the boring bar out to cut larger diameters. That wouldn't really work. I'll have to see how expensive that kind of tooling would be.
 
Kevin M. said:
Absolutely zip for components and reloading gear, but looking to get the press and dies from ch4d.

I have some odds and ends I can post here that I have collected, nothing crazy, it may or may not help. but i'll throw them up anyways. Right now I am on mobile, so I'll post those and pics on sunday or monday when home.
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THIS is the reason we built the ACCUMAXX press. Dies from CH4D for sure.
 
Meph said:
I did call ATRS a while ago. Not too sure who I spoke to, but that person told me they subcontracted 14.5 and 20mm stuff, and individual stainless cases run around 200 bucks each. That person didn't have much more information than that, but I'll send Rick a PM, perhaps he has a few pointers.
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Not sure who you spoke to here either. I had the 20mm cases turned, both inside and outside by way of CNC lathe from 416. This is the material that was recommended by Mike Remo of Anzio. He was the willing to share some of his secrets on this. A small but long boring bar was used along with ALOT of patience. The cases were not $200.00 each however, closer to $100.00 by the time the dust settled.
The 20mm cases are made to accept the CCI 35 primers, I would think that the same should be done to the 14.5s.
We have a TON of #35s in stock.

Not owning nor shooting a 14.5 I really have no useful intel on the loads used. I know 50 BMG is used by some but would look possibly at some of the very slow Vitavhouri powders.
Accurate Bullet Company in Salmon Arm BC is set up for solid turned projectiles, they make the 20mm stuff for me.
 
Meph said:
.......I've heard a few stories of PTRDs suffering permanent spontaneous disassembly from modern 14.5x114 KPV machine gun ammo, I do not want that to happen. I hear 50BMG powders work, but are fast-burning for this caliber, do slower powders exist that are available in Canada?
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I can't imagine that 20N29 is too fast, and neither would powders as "fast" as H50BMG and US869 be too fast either - you might just not be using a full case of them.

Have you considered having a mold made up and casting lead bullets? You'd be limited in how fast you could push them as they'd be plain-based (and lead), but they'd be cheap and could be salvaged and re-cast.
 
Andy said:
I can't imagine that 20N29 is too fast, and neither would powders as "fast" as H50BMG and US869 be too fast either - you might just not be using a full case of them.

Have you considered having a mold made up and casting lead bullets? You'd be limited in how fast you could push them as they'd be plain-based (and lead), but they'd be cheap and could be salvaged and re-cast.
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that would be my thought as well, also i would imagine with enough moderate loads it would work harden the brass so you could move up to full power loads. that might be the ultimate test for powder coated bullets too :)
 
CanAm said:
Curious as to why you chose 416 as a case material? I thing its cold working properties will yield poor results in neck forming

I would start with 70/30 cartridge brass. Alternately a good cold drawing grade of steel

If you have tool and die experience, making a set of cupping and drawing dies would yield excellent results

Also, if there is enough interest, we could bring in a few cases of 14.5x114. Although we would have to pull the bullets (likely)
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I am in for at least 300, and have a friend who would likely take another 1-200. Bullet would be preferable, but no bullet would still be tremendously helpful.
 
CanAm said:
Also, if there is enough interest, we could bring in a few cases of 14.5x114. Although we would have to pull the bullets (likely)
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I'd be down for 20 to 50 cases, depending of the price. Do you have a ballpark estimate?



alberta tactical rifle said:
Not sure who you spoke to here either. I had the 20mm cases turned, both inside and outside by way of CNC lathe from 416. This is the material that was recommended by Mike Remo of Anzio. He was the willing to share some of his secrets on this.
A small but long boring bar was used along with ALOT of patience. The cases were not $200.00 each however, closer to $100.00 by the time the dust settled.
The 20mm cases are made to accept the CCI 35 primers, I would think that the same should be done to the 14.5s.
We have a TON of #35s in stock.

Not owning nor shooting a 14.5 I really have no useful intel on the loads used. I know 50 BMG is used by some but would look possibly at some of the very slow Vitavhouri powders.
Accurate Bullet Company in Salmon Arm BC is set up for solid turned projectiles, they make the 20mm stuff for me.
Click to expand...

I'd like to thank you for clearing that up. Did Mr. Remo say why 416SS was used? As CanAm pointed out, it apparently doesn't cold work well. It makes sense to use it for how well it machines, and to reduce corrosion. As the cases will be sized to my chamber to the best fit, I don't see them wearing out prematurely; I wonder how long 20mm cases made with this process lasted, and if they were annealed or otherwise heat treated.

I was thinking about ways to machine the inside of the case today, came up with a few ideas. They'll be quite slow and touchy on a manual lathe, but I tested with a 0.400" diameter boring bar and I shouldn't have too much trouble boring the internal section of the case. It'll be extremely slow, but not impossible.

The 14.5 does have a small neck compared to the rest of the case, this complicates things as I'll need to cut a diameter inside the case that's much larger than the case mouth. Unless I can find a boring bar that can extend and retract the insert, independent of the boring bar position, while the bar is within the workpiece, I'll have to make my own. I already have a design for such a tool; simply put, a boring bar with a threaded hole down its center, and the insert mounted on a rail. A threaded shaft goes down the length of the boring bar to the rail, and is used to extend or retract the insert without moving the lathe X axis.

Again, I am extremely grateful for the input, and I'll be ordering CCI #35s soon.



Andy said:
I can't imagine that 20N29 is too fast, and neither would powders as "fast" as H50BMG and US869 be too fast either - you might just not be using a full case of them.

Have you considered having a mold made up and casting lead bullets? You'd be limited in how fast you could push them as they'd be plain-based (and lead), but they'd be cheap and could be salvaged and re-cast.
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Comforting to hear, as the powder load still makes me nervous. It's like the uncharted territory of the unknown country in another universe. With landmines.

Out of the 12' bar stock of steel I ordered, I reserved about 10 cases' worth for "plinking"; cases with just a straight bore down to the flash hole. Case capacity is extremely reduced, but those cases would serve only for a thousand+ grain cast bullet on top of Trail Boss and a shotgun primer. They'll probably be leaving at BP speeds, but they won't be very expensive to shoot. It'll be what I'll let friends shoot, as I do not want to see them injured if something goes wrong with a standard load.
 
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