Advice for extreme long-range cartridge

[kthomas]

Not sure what .300NM Lapua brass is priced at in Canada, but its less then $2 down here in the USA. There was a distributor in Canada selling it for cheaper than what was even available in the USA, but I can't remember who it was from or what the exact price was. But it certainly got everyone down here talking about it.

 

[kthomas]

No matter what they come out with next year, it still doesn't make any of the discussions here irrelevant, nor does it make any of these cartridges we are talking about suddenly incapable of shooting the distances they currently do now.

There's been a push by projectile manufacturers to come out with higher BC options. Hornady A-tip is a recent one, though IMO the cost per bullet is a bit high for the marginal BC gains. You can always go lathe turned solids, those have incredibly high BC's, are incredibly consistent in dimensions and some are designed to transition excellently through transonic. The Warner Flatline bullets have some crazy high BC's. The 198 grain .30 cal has a G1 BC of 0.838 - that out of a .300NM going ~3200 fps would be smoking. The 256 grain .338 has a BC of 0.862 - imagine that going out of a 33XC at 3400-3500 fps, from your .338LM based action!

The downsides to lathe turned solids is that they are very expensive, your chamber needs to be set up for them as they generally require a shorter freebore then their jacketed counterparts, you probably want to have a fast twist to hyperstabilize them and got the most benefit out of the projectile, and the don't through up as much of a signature when they hit the ground compared to jacketed bullets, making spotting misses slightly more challenging.

There will be some interesting stuff coming out, but it's not going to turn the industry upside down overnight. Hoplite arms for one will be coming out with some high pressure cartridges and rifle systems that will make SAAMI pressures look like BB guns.

 

[Trevor60]

Good Day

I am not sure where Mystic is getting his economics of scale

The OPS has stated he wants to participate in extreme long range.

With bigger calibers come fewer rounds per session down range.

PRS matches run up to 200rds
ELR matches are less then 50

You are not going to have a 50+ rd practice session of 338LM at distance

Your reloading component costs will be similar

instead of 500 pieces of 6.5 creedmoor you will only buy 100 maybe 200 of 300NM or 338lp

Something to consider
Trevor

 

[hunter-4-life]

I agree with Jerry. I had the magnum fever once. Bought myself a model 700 Long Range in 300 RUM. Loaded up 230gr Bergers and worked my way up to a HOT load of Retumbo. Hot enough I couldn't get more then 3 firings on brass. 3100FPS was my average with a 230 berger (FYI thats even faster than a 300 Norma) Wicked. Ya until me n a buddy who built a 6XC went to the range the one day. That 6XC out to 1000 yards was dialling up the same as me, getting there in the same time and held just over 0.25 moa more for wind than I did AND he could shoot all day without his shoulder being a chunk of ground beef after, even though I had a brake on my rum it wasnt nice enough to go for an all day range session. Not to mention he had shot that 6XC to 1400 (and defiantly could go way longer) with great success and out here thats about as long as you can shoot unless you know the right guys. Not to mention it was a 1/4 of the cost of shooting my rum (factoring in new brass every 3 firings, 91+gr of retumbo and the lead) ....guess what sits in my safe right now? Hint: Not a 300 RUM anymore.

 

[Mystic Precision]

To be clear, I have no ill feeling towards boomers. My shooting experience started in the middle of the magnum craze decades back when most reading this were in diapers or kindergarten.

I service a bunch of them and have owned several. We can build many of the new gen magnums and have built many 338LMs over the years. Because of that audience, I have some of the best supply of the big cases and gear.

So if the OP wants a boomer, let's go. Ironically, a decent performing rifle in a 'small' cal or boomer costs about the same. The optic will cost the same. Bore wear is not all that different either.

It is really the ammo cost where the divide is substantial.

We are all guessing on the useage and volume of shooting the OP might do... that is entirely up to him and if he really enjoys the boomers, other rifles will dissappear or funds will be allocated as desired.

It is all good.... but like the last ELR magnum craze, a lot of boomers got parked soon after completion cause launching $5 bills got to be old news in a hurry.... and no, the prices have not been adjusted for inflation

YMMV.

Jerry

PS.. taking a trip down memory lane, the super duper set up (the testerossa of magnums) was the then new 338LM with a Sierra 250gr MK going 2900'ish. WOW, a G1 BC of 0.58 was 'blow your mind' territory (no we knew nothing about G7 at that time).

Today, that is a 6 Dasher... just saying.

 

[saunders278]

A year from now.... then I would just wait. At the rate things are changing, much of what we are talking about now will be very old news. By then we could all be swooning over some polymer cored 8mm super slug or some wifi enabled 45 cal finned dagger... very smart people have decided 2 miles is a fun distance to start from. The trickle down is going to be super exciting.

If you are concerned about $2 per case, I think you might want to put the couture magnum project on hold for a wee bit... or go old school

FYI, Todays price on Lapua 338LM is just over $4 per case before ship and tax.

408 CT brass is cheaper at under $3.50 per case before ship and tax... in bulk.

Lapua 300NM is well over your budget... hell, 6.5X47L brass is over a $1.50 each.

As I said, figure out what your running budget is before worrying too much about the rifle. You will quickly find that anything new and fancy is going to cost alot more to run. Old boring cases like the 7RM and 300Win mag and variants off these are WAAAYYYY less money. Even the RUM has gotten some pricey

There are strong economic reasons to stay in the Creedmoor family... if the goal is to shoot a bunch.

There are many good reasons why my current up to 2000yd rig is a 30-06.... it was supposed to be a 30-338win mag but the ELR ballistics were very surprising so I just didn't see the point.

If you are interested in a Timney for your Tikka, send me a pm or email.

Jerry

Yeah, I'm sure new things will appear on the scene, and I'll probably change my mind 20-30 more times on what to go forward with. I just want to get the wheels turning.

And $4 per piece of brass??? Wow, I was way off. Good thing I'm single with no kids.

I can deal with that, though, I have other rifles I can shoot for cheap.

 

[saunders278]

No matter what they come out with next year, it still doesn't make any of the discussions here irrelevant, nor does it make any of these cartridges we are talking about suddenly incapable of shooting the distances they currently do now.

There's been a push by projectile manufacturers to come out with higher BC options. Hornady A-tip is a recent one, though IMO the cost per bullet is a bit high for the marginal BC gains. You can always go lathe turned solids, those have incredibly high BC's, are incredibly consistent in dimensions and some are designed to transition excellently through transonic. The Warner Flatline bullets have some crazy high BC's. The 198 grain .30 cal has a G1 BC of 0.838 - that out of a .300NM going ~3200 fps would be smoking. The 256 grain .338 has a BC of 0.862 - imagine that going out of a 33XC at 3400-3500 fps, from your .338LM based action!

The downsides to lathe turned solids is that they are very expensive, your chamber needs to be set up for them as they generally require a shorter freebore then their jacketed counterparts, you probably want to have a fast twist to hyperstabilize them and got the most benefit out of the projectile, and the don't through up as much of a signature when they hit the ground compared to jacketed bullets, making spotting misses slightly more challenging.

There will be some interesting stuff coming out, but it's not going to turn the industry upside down overnight. Hoplite arms for one will be coming out with some high pressure cartridges and rifle systems that will make SAAMI pressures look like BB guns.

I've been looking at those A-Tips for my 6.5CM, my die set will arrive any day now so I'll have to make a decision on what bullets to start with. I was thinking the ELD-Ms to start, had good results with those in a 7mm Rem Mag. But I've also had my eye on the Berger Hybrids, they don't seem to cost too much more than the ELD-Ms.

I know this is off-topic but if anyone has any suggestions for 6.5CM target load recipes, I'd love to hear them.

kthomas, The lathe-turned solids, those would be solid copper? Are those the same as monolithics?

Also, has anyone had experience with those ALCO bullets with the aluminum tips and rebated boat tails? They don't seem to make them for many different calibers but I've heard good things.

 

[kthomas]

I use and really like Berger bullets, the hybrids seem to like anywhere from 5 to 15 thou of jumps to the lands. People seem to like the ELDM's, but I haven't shot them since I shot factory loads prior to reloading.

Here is my load, gets 2830 fps out of a 24" barrel with SD of 5.0 or less, shoots excellent:

- 42.5 grains H4350
- Lapua brass
- CCI BR4 primers
- 140 Berger Hybrids jumping 10 thou off the lands

 

[kthomas]

Lathe turned solids are solid copper (some may have plastic ballistic tips installed, such as some of the hunting CE bullets) and are also known as monolithics. The advantage to these bullets is the BC is super high for their weight class, are much more consistent bullet to bullet then their lead core jacketed counterparts, and don't suffer from ballistic degradation issues such as torn jackets or deformation of the core. You can spin them super fast, for extra stability (or hyperstability) down range, which will help with transitioning into the transonic ranges.

Disadvantages are they are more costly, usually require a specific chamber to run them for their shorter freebore, you essentially need to have a barrel dedicated to them for that chamber and the tighter twist you will want to utilize. Also, they don't frag so downrange signature or "splash" is not as evident as their jacketed counterparts. So there's certainly trade-offs.

The Alco bullets have horrible BC for their weight range. If you want high for weight class BC, you should be looking at the lathe turned solids bullets. If you dont want to make some of the sacrifices of the lathe turned, then Hornady A-tip may be a good choice.

Right now, I shoot Berger Hybrids in most of my cartridges (6BRA , 6.5 creedmoor and .300NM) with very good results. They seem to be very easy to load for and tune.

 

[saunders278]

I use and really like Berger bullets, the hybrids seem to like anywhere from 5 to 15 thou of jumps to the lands. People seem to like the ELDM's, but I haven't shot them since I shot factory loads prior to reloading.

Here is my load, gets 2830 fps out of a 24" barrel with SD of 5.0 or less, shoots excellent:

- 42.5 grains H4350
- Lapua brass
- CCI BR4 primers
- 140 Berger Hybrids jumping 10 thou off the lands

Thanks, I ordered some ELD-Ms, so I'll start with those with H4350 and move to the Bergers to compare.

I also started a thread on this subject titled "6.5 Creedmoor reloading advice?" under "Reloading Recipes" if anyone wants to continue this discussion.