While Norinco rifles used to be a good deal, with the lower priced American made rifles like the 700 dollar S&W make them obsolete.
No more fussing with not to spec parts, and hit or miss quality. There's just zero point to buy Chinese when you can get far better quality for about the same price.
The S&W rifle is not milspec. Being US made does not mean it is well made. You are correct that the threads are most likely the proper pitch vs the metric-ish threads of a Norc.
I would like to start by saying TY all for any advice, I really do appreciate it.
I do not plan in taking any guns at this point in my life to the states. If/when that time comes I will do what needs to be done to do so.
I do not see the need at this moment to have to shoot beyond 300M. ( this may be due to my lack of knowledge/experience but I do not see why or when I would need to)
I would like to possibly get into 3 gun in the future (time and money) but that is not my goal at this moment. I would prefer to shoot "offhand" instead of always off a bench.
I would love to take training courses and increase all my shooting skills in anything I do.
Once again ty everyone for the help so far
If you're serious about taking training courses then you will be going to the USA, there are very few courses offered in Canada and even fewer that are quality.
There are essentially 5 tiers of AR's on the market right now:
- Bottom of the barrel: Norinco (Made in China, questionable quality).
- Low end: American-made guns selling for under $1,000 (some, like S&W, sell for as little as $700 these days, almost on par with Norinco, making the latter obsolete).
- Middle-of-the-road: $1,000-$2,000 (quality guns from reputable manufacturers like FN, Colt, Stag Arms, Sig, LMT, etc.)
- High end: $2,000 (Daniel Defense, KAC, Colt Canada, etc.) - fancier and more expensive than tier 3 guns; have features that some people want but others don't care for (i.e. the allegedly superior Colt Canada barrels).
- Super high end: $3,500+. The only gun I can think of that fits this tier is HK MR223, which is really in a category all by itself (made in Germany, piston-driven, used by special forces, etc., etc.) These guns are expensive but the quality and uniqueness make them worth it for those who can afford them.
Capp325 has it right, there are the defined levels of AR rifles and the S&W sport II is on tier 2.
Well, what little advice I can give is this, a wise man once told me that when it comes to rifles its about " bullets, barrels and bedding" and some of that does hold true for the AR platform. I really only have experience with Colt and HK guns, that said, I have enough experience with these guns to know that the chances of getting a barrel that doesn't group is low, if you did, I'm sure it would be dealt with via the warranty. While you may get lucky and get a lower price AR that "groups" that's fine, but what if you don't, change the barrel, try every bullet out there? It's up to you? At the end of the day, it's your money? buy what you want & can afford. Good Luck
Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words, I shot this out of my HK416, 10.4" barrel @ 100yrd, this is after firing about 60rds before in rapid succession. Ignore the couple of "flyers" (for reference purposes the "white box" is 2")
If those flyers were shot with the group then they are to be included, you can't cherry pick your groups. As for accuracy, the AR is a service rifle designed for service level of accuracy. Don't forget that 90% of AR owners will feed their rifles the cheapest ammo they can find which makes all the cool guy match barrels and other stuff obsolete. Oh and factor in the shooters ability/inability to shoot.
My wife has a hard time with heavy rifles. She bought a Diamondback Db15 and loves the weight and ability to shoot standing up.
Any AR can be altered to reduce weight, they are after all the Lego of rifles.
Buy yourself a S&W MP-15, a decent optic and spend the rest of your $3000 budget on ammo. Learn the platform, figure out what works for you and what doesn't and then you'll be in a much better position to make an informed decision;--when the time comes to upgrade or completely replace it. Incidentally, the S&W is a fantastic deal and the low price doesn't reflect quality, but rather the so-called "Trump Slump" created when Hilary Clinton failed to win the election. The panic buying that started under Obama slowed and many manufacturers were forced to blow out prices to move excess inventory and free up capital. It wasn’t just S&W who guessed wrong. Best of luck with your purchase.
Again, the S&W sport II is not a high quality AR, it is just above a Norc. The melonite finish is a cheap alternative to the proper chrome lining, the medium contour barrel is unnecessary and only saves time in machining, The barrel steel is a cheap alternative to the milspec required steel, carbine gas is over gassed and not ideal when a mid length system would be better on a 16" barrel, and the 1:9 twist is not ideal for heavier projectiles. Not a major issue as most of us shoot 55 or 62 gr anyway but I digress..
I just purchased my first AR and after reading post after post and review after review I decided to start with the S&W M&P 15 sport II instead of jumping into a build or a high end rifle. I went this route because I am not 100% sure what I would be using it for and I am not sure what features I want or don’t want. This way I start with a great quality US made AR and have money to try out different upgrades and see what works for me and after I know all that I can sell the starter package and upgrade to a Colt or a DD or a custom build. Just my two cents
If it's your first AR you respectfully haven't a clue what a great quality AR really is. The same claims were made by first time AR owners about Norcs, NEA, Dlask, Omni, etc etc. The sport II is an American made rifle which puts it light years ahead of the Norc but it is far from a high quality rifle. Read above..
Well this was off my ammo test that I ran when I used my 10.5 inch, 75 grain performed very well, where 55 was all over the place. Prehaps if you had a 16" in 1/7 things would be different.
The projectile weight is not the only factor in performance.. I have no issues ringing steel at 300 with 55gr cheap stuff out of an 11.5" AR.
What others have said.
My first was a 14.5" Norc. Great rifle. Never had an issue. Sold it so I could buy the Sport II. Wanted the US made, 16" barrel. If I had to buy my first today, the Norc would not be on the list simply because they cost as much as the US made ARs available to us now. Personally, I see no need in spending a ####e load of cash on a rifle that I can only shoot at the range....and 1 MOA accuracy or less I reserve for my bolt guns. The AR is for 3-gun fun and off-hand shooting.
Here's a guy who has a realistic expectation of his AR.
TY all so much for the advice so far. I am the type that would rather have 1 quality gun instead of 5 cheaper ones. My last pistol I purchased was the new Gold Cup Trophy from colt series 70 (5070XE). Since this was a really tough gun to find in Canada, after taxes and my first bullet purchase I was 3000$ into the gun. I could have easily bought several almost as good guns for this price but I can only shoot so many and I like what I like.
Saying that I am not against buying the S&W sports 2 for much less then what I can spend and I do like to save money. But my question is, Will I be looking to upgrade once I do get acquainted with the AR platform? I understand and truly appreciate why I would start cheap (I did the same thing with pistols) but if you had to do it all over again would you rather have spent you money on a nice AR right off the hop and saved your first purchase money to put towards a more expensive rifle or maybe even something nice for you lady?
I will dispense with some sage advice for selecting a rifle based on your indicated uses/desires.
A 16" barrel will be your most versatile choice and easiest to source.
A mid length gas system will reward you every time you pull the trigger. Less recoil and less wear and tear on your rifle.
Lighter is better. There is no need for a heavy contour or a medium contour barrel. A "government" contour is as heavy as I would ever go and even that has no defined benefits. An enhanced lightweight or a simple pencil barrel will make your life much less miserable when carrying or shooting offhand. Performance is the same when you consider all other factors(ammo, optic, shooting position, shooter, weather etc).
A 1:7 twist gives you the most versatility in bullet weight options, however you'll likely end up shooting 55/62gr like most of us so a 1:9 isn't horrible.
A hammer forged barrel is stronger and proclaimed to be a more precisely made barrel vs button broached. I am a fan of hammer forged barrels.
Reliability as another pointed out is paramount, if the rifle doesn't run 100% then it simply doesn't run. For that reason I am a fan of both 5.56x45mm NATO chambers and chrome lining. Both being milspec requirements. Match chambers, Wylde chambers and .223rem chambers can have issues and none are approved for service grade rifles. Not saying you're going to war with your rifle but, if someone would bet their life on a chrome lined 5.56x45mm NATO chamber then I feel confident I can bet my days enjoyment on it as well.
Other than fit and finish, you would be very hard pressed to notice significant differences between a $700 S&W and a $3000 Noveske or KAC.
Sure, you may get QDs included, an ambi safety, a nicer trigger, nicer barrel, tighter tolerances etc. but in terms of real world use shooting bullets at 50-200yds, there is really not that much difference. I could not personally tell a Norc from an Omni, older DD, Colt or S&W without looking at it. They all shoot fine.
The reasons you may want a super duper AR is: bragging rights; you’re going into battle; you have OCD and/ or you need the absolutely most accurate AR out there. When it comes to resale time, you’ll never get your money back on an expensive AR. People want your gun but no one is willing to pay huge $ for a used one. ARs are tools, not jewels so you really need a specific reason to buy a really expensive one or you’ll never get the most out of using one, which is getting it dinged up, wet and scratched. But it sure puts a smile on your face when you drop the bolt and have your thumb on the selector!
See my post on the first page. If you don’t care about the name brand factor, get the S&W and put in the parts I suggested. I guarantee you can’t tell the difference between your properly souped up $700 S&W and a $3000 stock rifle. And if you can tell the difference, the 2000 rounds of ammo you would have shot would easily make up for it!
I disagree. With a quality rifle you get properly made components using proper methods with proper materials. The value of the rifle is greater than the sum of its parts. Cheap steel in a barrel or bolt will cost you sooner than you think. Out of spec feed ramps or lower receiver dimensions create a world of agony. Something as simple as the recoil buffer retaining pin being out of place has serious consequences and is not an easy fix. An out of spec mag well means your magazines won't drop free. Simple errors that shouldn't occur and yet they do.
Not sand box real world. Civvy range real world for us toy soldiers! If you read the post entirely, I said the super duper ARs are fine if you’re going to war. I know you’re a HK and KAC fan. Since the OP is new to the AR, I would assume he is not an ultra high end competitor or operator. Their requirements are not quite the same as what the OP might want an AR for, as judged from his questions.
Then again, I could be entirely wrong and mistook his post.
You don't need to be a high end competitor or operator to desire or appreciate a quality built product..
Look at a classic Colt, 20 years of enjoyment. Built to last
Old Colt was great, newer stuff is hit and miss. The Expanse for example is not made by Colt, only the receiver is...
Exactly get a Colt Canada rifle. But once ...cry once.
You can’t beat it and for the money it’s actually a great deal.
CC make great rifles but they are grossly over hyped and over priced.
I could not agree more. That’s why I’m going along with the suggestions for a good quality lower end AR like the S&W, Bushmaster or WW. Properly equipped, it will bring a novice shooter much joy and enjoyment for a long time.
Will I take it to war? Yes, if it’s the only gun around. Are they better than a true combat AR? Heck no!
Again, the sport II is not a good quality rifle, it is a base level rifle.
Here's my suggestion to the OP. With a budget like his(and not saying he has to spend it all) he would be well suited to buy a CC MRR 16" although it still has the inferior carbine length gas system and is near impossible to work on as it is a monolithic upper. It does however provide a free floated barrel/forend and is well made.
Another option would be to buy a DD rifle complete as it too has a free float forend/barrel and many of the same features as the CC such as a cold hammer forged barrel, chrome lined chamber and bore, 1:7 twist, proper barrel,bolt and receiver materials. A similar option would be a Bravo Company(BCM) rifle/upper. A pure Colt USA rifle is a good choice, LMT, KAC, HK, and Noveske. That being said BCM is the only company to prove that their rifles and components are in fact milspec. Not saying the DD, Colt/CC, LMT, KAC, HK and Noveske don't use or follow the TDP and milspec requirements but they have yet to provide proof of such. Keep in mind that Colt/CC DD, BCM and LMT are the only companies to offer 100% milspec guns. The others are great choices but do stray from milspec in their own ways usually in barrel design and/or composition.
If you're looking to save some coin then "assembling" a rifle from a separate lower and upper is a good way to do that. The magic is mostly in the upper. Any decent lower receiver that is in spec will do the job. The above name brands are good, Stag makes a solid lower as does Aero Precision. Buying a complete or near complete upper is cheaper and allows some customization if you have something in mind.
Some examples:
Calgary Shooting Centre has BCM uppers for $729. You need a bolt carrier group and a charge handle. For a good BCG you'll spend $300 and a good charge handle about $100. You'll also need some plastic handguards which will cost you $60. Around $1200 for a complete high end top. Red Deer Shooting Centre has Aero Precision stripped lowers for $129 or a CC stripped lower for $249. A DD or BCM lower parts kit can be had for $149-200. Around $100 for a receiver extension(buffer tube) spring and buffer. Pick your stock and away you go. Around $400 for a complete lower with a $1200 complete upper and you have yourself a well made, properly made AR for $1600.. If you want to simply assemble upper and lower, RDSC has BCM compete lowers for $700. Under $2000 for a complete milspec BCM rifle.. Or go the DD route and have a free floated ready to go rifle(minus sights/optic) for a little over $2000.
I know CSC has a test shot KAC SR15E3(16") for around $2000 if you want the high end boutique rifle without paying crazy crazy money. Doesn't get any better than a KAC and it comes with KAC folding front and rear sights.
If you're not picky there are plenty of DD rifles in the EE at some great prices as well.
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...rnado-grey-Vancouver?highlight=Daniel+defense
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...-Daniel-Defense-M4V7?highlight=Daniel+defense
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...7-DDM4-V5-New-Unshot?highlight=Daniel+defense
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...l-Defense-M4V5-upper?highlight=Daniel+defense
Killer deal on an upper!
